evse prices

[fjpod]

We may have discussed this before...but it may be time to compare prices again. Does anybody but me think that $750 and up for what is basically an oversized laptop charger, is too much money? (I know what your thinking...if your into an EV, don't complain about a measley charger).

Any well priced units to report lately?

 

[peterdambier]

In Germany they talk about original Panasonic for Mitsu and Nissan about 2000 Euro (2600 Dollar). Used to be 230V/16A now you get only 230V/10A.

I got a Voltec portable (switchable 230V/6A or 230V/10A) for Opel/Chevy for some 350 Euro (450 Dollars). See Voltec EVSE on extra thread.

 

[fjpod]

Here are several units from Home Depot, but there is no unit for less than $750..I am leaning towards the Schneider.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=evse&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=SEARCHALL

 

[garygid]

The EVSE is not even an oversized laptop charger, since it
is only a slightly-smart extension cord, with some safety
features, and special plugs on the ends.

It just connects the AC Power to the car, after doing some
safety checks to determine that a car is attached, telling the
car how much current is (theoretically) available, and
getting a "Power On" signal from the car.

If you want to make an EVSE, you might consider the
OpenEVSE project, but the parts still cost near $450.

 

[MLucas]

Here are several units from Home Depot, but there is no unit for less than $750..I am leaning towards the Schneider.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=evse&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=SEARCHALL

I've had good luck with the Schneider and it works well with the Remote. I've read on another forum that the new version (the one where the unused plug fits into a socket holder) has been improved to work with a wider range of EVs. Its a bit more money ($50.00) but would probably worth it to get the latest version from them. I have the older version where the plug does not fit into a dummy socket, but I don't have any problems with it either.

Old version:

New Version:

Now this is really different, just saw that you can now customize your EVSE with a skin. They have a library of over 600 skins, or you can use any photo you like. You can put your i MiEV on your EVSe if you so choose.

 

[MLucas]

The EVSE is not even an oversized laptop charger, since it
is only a slightly-smart extension cord, with some safety
features, and special plugs on the ends.

Definitely agree with this. I was abysmally disappointed about how little there is inside of the EVSE. A circuit board to check the pilot voltage, a huge relay that is thrown when the pilot voltage is correct signalling the car is ready to charge and some big honking fuses and thats it. I know we are being taken for a ride on this stuff because we are the early adopters and there isn't yet a huge demand for them. I don't think they are worth anymore than $300 dollars and thats with providing the company a healthy profit, pay the liability insurance cost and pay off the engineering cost.

 

[peterdambier]

Might say an EVSE is an elephant of a Ground Fault Indicator combined with a remote control for a model airplane. It has got a single channel used to turn charge current from 6 to 80 amperes and usually you even cannot turn the control. If you enjoy electric dancing (healthier than russian roulette but not much) you might feel tempted to replace the relays with a plug and feed the pilot with a square wave. Most of the sockets we use have already a GFI installed. Maybe you could even get away with that control. I'll give it a try.

 

[fjpod]

The EVSE is not even an oversized laptop charger, since it
is only a slightly-smart extension cord, with some safety
features, and special plugs on the ends.

It just connects the AC Power to the car, after doing some
safety checks to determine that a car is attached, telling the
car how much current is (theoretically) available, and
getting a "Power On" signal from the car.

If you want to make an EVSE, you might consider the
OpenEVSE project, but the parts still cost near $450.

All the more reason it should not cost $800.

 

[Don]

The EVSE is not even an oversized laptop charger, since it
is only a slightly-smart extension cord, with some safety
features, and special plugs on the ends.

Definitely agree with this. I was abysmally disappointed about how little there is inside of the EVSE. A circuit board to check the pilot voltage, a huge relay that is thrown when the pilot voltage is correct signalling the car is ready to charge and some big honking fuses and thats it. I know we are being taken for a ride on this stuff because we are the early adopters and there isn't yet a huge demand for them. I don't think they are worth anymore than $300 dollars and thats with providing the company a healthy profit, pay the liability insurance cost and pay off the engineering cost.

Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that

First, it doesn't 'check the pilot' . . . . it generates the pilot and adjusts that signal to tell the car what power (amperage) is available, so the car can adjust the onboard charger not to draw more power than the EVSE tells the car the outlet it's plugged into can provide. The EVSE 'brainbox' is a small computer, so while you can correctly call it a 'smart cord' it's still a bit more complicated than that, as it must be able to recognize all sorts of faults and malfunctions so it can disconnect the car from your home power so that neither one burns down. Getting all that properly tested, UL listed and SAE certified costs money - If you're only selling a couple thousand of these per year, those development costs could add significantly to the price of each individual unit

Depending on the EVSE, the relays are quite small, as are the fuses. In the Open EVSE that I built, the relays are powered by the 5 volt supply that generates the pilot and despite the fact that each one is about the size of 4 sugar cubes, they can switch 20 amps at either 120 or 240 volts

As Gary mentions, building you own still costs in the neighborhood of $450 just for the parts and what you have when you're done isn't 'certified' by anybody. I paid $135 for the J1772 connector alone

Like most all electronic products, they will certainly come down in price once they are streamlined and enough are built to bring the production costs down. Realize that 10 years ago, a 32 inch non-HD flat panel TV cost you $3500. Was that a 'rip-off'? Back then nobody thought so, but today you can buy the same thing for less than 10% of that. What's different now? They've greatly streamlined the product so it's much simpler to build and they've made several million of them

Don

 

[DonDakin]

I also had the same feeling that EVSE's are really overpriced.

For sure there is very little in them in terms of components. I think the open EVSE has a small micro computer and can drive a display also. Our stock 120 V evse just has a few lights. Is the startup sequence so complex that you need a micro controller to sequence it ? Maybe that's a moot point because micro's are pretty cheap these days.

But when I think about this a little more I'm not sure that a home EVSE needs to be that complex. If the home wiring is already fault free and checked out then would it not be sufficient to energize the relay when the connection is made ? Why should an EVSE need to check for something in your home everytime you plug it in if the home wiring is never changing ? Maybe I'm missing something here Don ?

Does anyone know what the EVSE is really doing ? For example it's supposed to check for ground faults. So how would a ground fault happen ? How could someone go about creating a test ground fault to see the EVSE detects it and protects from it ?
I would love to have someone explain that to me. Maybe if I understood it I would pay top dollar for an EVSE but I'm a bit skeptical.

I have plugged my 120 V EVSE into a power outlet on the side of a building and the fault light came on. Then I tried another outlet 10 feet away and that one worked. So I know it's doing something. I have also seen the power light blink once when I plugged it into a parking lot plug that was kind of rusty looking.

It drives me bonkers when you ask about EVSE's and the answer comes back "You need a certified EVSE or you/your car/house/dog will burn down. I mean my new dryer has a 30 Amp 220 V connection with a ton of relay/motors/sensors/dials/buttons/etc on it. You stand in front of it in your bare feet with sopping wet clothes in your bare hands load it and press the button. It's huge and it costs $350.00

Ok I know there are more clothes Dryers out there then EVSE's but seriously $700.00 for the cheapest one ? No wonder I'm skeptical.

Peter I'd love to hear the results of your experiments. If it's as simple as supplying a 12 V square wave pilot with a 16 amp indicative pulse width and an L1 L2 and Gnd That's pretty simple to build and supply. I can't image that at the end of charge if the EVSE relay does not open the car continues to charge, the battery over charges/swells and then catches fire. I would imagine that the internal charger would just stop even if you presented the mains AC on the J1772 connector. If that is true you could replace the relay with a two simple switches.

Anyways just my 2 cents. I have not really done enough web searching on this topic but if anyone out there has please enlighten me.

Don.......

I am aware of the very reasonable EVSE upgrade. It's on my short list of what to do to speed up charging.

 

[garygid]

About a 5k ohm "leak" from the AC Hot to ground (24 ma)
should be enough to trip the EVSE's GFI.

CAUTION, DO NOT try this unless you are qualified to do so.

 

[peterdambier]

You have asked. Here comes the answer:

An EVSE is two things packaged together in a box.

1) A really sophisticated GFI. Before comming alive with 120V or 240V it does a test if that thing outside looks like a car. When connected it even checks if that current that gets outside on one pin comes back in on the other side. If it does not then Ground Fault! It works on a mains with 2 wires and still detects ground faults a normal GFI would not notice e.g. your car parked in a pond and power shorted to earth via that pond.

2) A remote control used to tune the charger in the EV to charge between 6A and 80A.

That box can save your live and is worth its price. But it is your decision if its worth your money.

I love doing variete tricks with electricity but I have learned one year for my hamradio exam when I was 17 years old and I have learned a lot since then. I have seen more radio amateurs in this forum. They have passed their exam and they are meant to know what they are doing. If you are interested look for the ARRL or any local hamradio club. Meet the people decide whether you want more. Knowing a radio amateur with a power socket wherever you want to drive is a good idea in the first place.

And now for the i-MiEV, its batteries in particular. The batteries compare to your mains power socket like the barriere of La Grande Riviere at the Baie de La James compares to your garden hose. There is no fuse to protect you. You ever wondered why Jack Rickard of evtv.me is wearing yellow shoes? They do isolate him from ground. A man with both feet on the ground could never have his ideas :mrgreen:

 

[fjpod]

Ummm...all I wanted to talk about was EVSE prices. I know it is not a charger, and I know I need one, and I know it's for my protection.

So, c'mon folks...get out there and scout out these things and report back. Buy a few...drive the prices down.

 

[MLucas]

Ummm...all I wanted to talk about was EVSE prices. I know it is not a charger, and I know I need one, and I know it's for my protection.

So, c'mon folks...get out there and scout out these things and report back. Buy a few...drive the prices down.

With this group of nerds, what did your expect? :lol:

We are all a bunch of propeller heads that have to examine, debate and describe everything imaginable.

I've done my part and bought a Schneider L2 EVSE and I'm very happy with it. It does the job but still think they cost way too much. Its basic economics here, suppy and demand. Not a whole lot of demand right now but those that need it - need it bad. The uninformed will gladly pay $2000 grand for these things, the companies are simply charging what the market will bear. Right now, that is $1000 dollars. Without a high demand and not much invested in this technology - the companies can charge what they like. I don't see the electronics on this thing as very complicated, a smart phone has more going for it at 1/2 of the price. The companies have huge buying power, while that OpenEVSE project will cost you $450 dollars - it costs them a fraction of that. It cost like $167.50 to make an iPhone 5 but people line up out the door to pay $600 dollars for that thing (less after cell phone marketing incentives). Or how about those netbooks that go for $300 bucks?

 

[Don]

All the charger in the car can handle is about 3400 watts, which is 14 amps @ 240 volts. If economy is the biggest consideration for your EVSE purchase, send the stock unit off to EVSE Upgrade and have it modified. You'll have a 120/240 @ 12 amp unit which will recharge the car almost as fast as the most expensive unit you can buy and you'll have spent less than $350

Don

 

[DonDakin]

Hey guys,

Sorry to hijack this thread (a little) with a rant.

Thanks for the explanations. I can see that the current leak protection is a big safety issue. I think I will do a little testing going down the road (carefully of course).

With the mileage I do 120 V charging is working for me almost all the time but I would like to be able to do 3KW charging every once in awhile. This makes it even harder to justify purchasing L2 at the current high prices. I think I will wait it out thru the winter season and perhaps check things out in the spring.

Don.....

 

[fjpod]

Hey guys,

Sorry to hijack this thread (a little) with a rant.

Thanks for the explanations. I can see that the current leak protection is a big safety issue. I think I will do a little testing going down the road (carefully of course).

With the mileage I do 120 V charging is working for me almost all the time but I would like to be able to do 3KW charging every once in awhile. This makes it even harder to justify purchasing L2 at the current high prices. I think I will wait it out thru the winter season and perhaps check things out in the spring.

Don.....

Same here. 120 volt does the trick 95% of the time. Hard to justify $800+ for an L2.

 

[MLucas]

All the charger in the car can handle is about 3400 watts, which is 14 amps @ 240 volts. If economy is the biggest consideration for your EVSE purchase, send the stock unit off to EVSE Upgrade and have it modified. You'll have a 120/240 @ 12 amp unit which will recharge the car almost as fast as the most expensive unit you can buy and you'll have spent less than $350

Don

Don't forget though, that the modified EVSE may no longer work with the Remote. Consider if using the Remote is necessary for your situation before upgrading your EVSE. I use the Remote all year round and find it absolutely necessary to get the most out of my car. I have decided to leave my L1 alone so that I can use the remote at the office and preheat/precool my car before leaving for the day.

 

[MLucas]

Same here. 120 volt does the trick 95% of the time. Hard to justify $800+ for an L2.

Definitely consider all options before shelling out money you don't need, too. Would be nice if I could get away with just using the L1 EVSE.

 

[Don]

I think the modified EVSE works OK with the remote in the L1 mode, doesn't it?

Not a big consideration anyway, as the January software 'fix' should take care of that anyway

If the stock EVSE is working for you guys most of the time, it will work even better for you when it's 120 @ 12 amps as opposed to the 8 amps you're getting now

When they modify it, they put a molded 12 gauge twistlock pigtail on it. If you then install a pair of twistlock sockets side by side in your garage, one for 120 and the other for 240, then you'd really have the best of both worlds - Switch from L1 to L2 just by plugging into the appropriate outlet. I did this for a few months until I got my Open EVSE built. Now I just leave the OEM unit plugged into L1 all the time and the Open EVSE plugged into L2. L1 @ 12 amps works for me 95% of the time too

Another plus for the modded OEM unit is that it makes a great travel charger. You carry it and an appropriate twstlock pigtail adapter so you can plug into any power source you need. A standard household outlet anywhere, anytime. Aunt Mary's 240 volt dryer socket when you visit her, your buddy's 240 volt air compressor socket when you visit him, etc, etc. The OEM unit is small, rugged, very portable and very powerful, once it's modded to be L1/L2 capable. It would be hard to beat even if you were considering spending $750 on something else

Don