China pushing for electric cars, Japan favours hydrogen:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...ric-idUSL3N12M2A920151028#7GFCHtyWVSLCvlpT.97
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...ric-idUSL3N12M2A920151028#7GFCHtyWVSLCvlpT.97
Electric vs hydrogen
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PV1
Well-known member
Battery Electric Vehicles:
Pros:
1. Most efficient energy usage.
2. Safest energy system.
3. Range will soon be a non-issue (2017/2018 cars will have at least 180 miles per charge).
4. Can be charged in as little as 20 minutes (80% from DC quick charger). On a recent trip, this is the perfect amount of time to eat.
5. Lowest maintenance.
6. Infrastructure mostly in place already. A regular outlet is the least that is required.
Cons:
1. 120 volt/240 volt charge times may be inconvenient at times. Larger on-board chargers and higher amp-rate EVSE solve this for the most part.
2. Cabin heating takes a toll on range during the winter (possible to utilize waste heat from the charger and motor. See thread Waste Heat).
3. Range of the current vehicles may not cover needs for many (Gen2 cars coming in the next 2 years will mostly resolve this).
Hydrogen:
Pros:
1. Longer range compared to Gen1 Li-Ion BEVs.
2. Refueling may be faster than battery charging.
Cons:
1. Less efficient energy usage (comparable to efficiency of gasoline engines).
2. No current infrastructure.
3. Has to be generated from water or natural gas (Hydrogen, for use in fuel cells, is merely an energy carrier, not a source).
4. Cost of Hydrogen fuel, fuel cells, maintenance?
Pros:
1. Most efficient energy usage.
2. Safest energy system.
3. Range will soon be a non-issue (2017/2018 cars will have at least 180 miles per charge).
4. Can be charged in as little as 20 minutes (80% from DC quick charger). On a recent trip, this is the perfect amount of time to eat.
5. Lowest maintenance.
6. Infrastructure mostly in place already. A regular outlet is the least that is required.
Cons:
1. 120 volt/240 volt charge times may be inconvenient at times. Larger on-board chargers and higher amp-rate EVSE solve this for the most part.
2. Cabin heating takes a toll on range during the winter (possible to utilize waste heat from the charger and motor. See thread Waste Heat).
3. Range of the current vehicles may not cover needs for many (Gen2 cars coming in the next 2 years will mostly resolve this).
Hydrogen:
Pros:
1. Longer range compared to Gen1 Li-Ion BEVs.
2. Refueling may be faster than battery charging.
Cons:
1. Less efficient energy usage (comparable to efficiency of gasoline engines).
2. No current infrastructure.
3. Has to be generated from water or natural gas (Hydrogen, for use in fuel cells, is merely an energy carrier, not a source).
4. Cost of Hydrogen fuel, fuel cells, maintenance?
I think those pros and cons are dubious. I think it can not be pro, that charging takes 20 minutes. It is definitely a con. You can go to restaurant even if your car is ready to drive, if you are hungry. But you can not drive, if you have to wait for charging process, even if you hurry.
Current means of power generation do not let to rank EVs highly for the efficiency of energy use. Power must be generatef first and it is usually low efficiency process. Battery is merely an energy carrier, not a source.
EV-s have poor infrastructure, several competing incompatible standards for fast charging. The grid works often at its fuyll capacity already, upgrading the grid is costly and troublesome.
Efficiency of the fuel cell is rated 60+%. This is much higer than efficiency of ICE or efficiency of average electric power generation. Residual heat of power generation can be used for FCV-s, but not in case of BEV-s.
EV battery packs have very high initial and replacement costs.
EV batteries deteriorate significantly even when car is unused. Both extreme cold and heat damages batteries. Batteries are heavy and make EV heavy. Heavy car causes more damage to the roads and need stronger undercarridge => more metal. Heavy cars need more energy for acceleration.
Refueling of FCV is 5...10 times faster than of BEV.
Even 180 miles per charging is very little. FCV can drive 300+ miles with 5 kg of hydrogen. Hydrogen has very high energy density, that keeps FCV light and efficient. You can leave your FCV unattended for extended period (when you are travelling or stay in hospital, etc), without damaging the car.
Current means of power generation do not let to rank EVs highly for the efficiency of energy use. Power must be generatef first and it is usually low efficiency process. Battery is merely an energy carrier, not a source.
EV-s have poor infrastructure, several competing incompatible standards for fast charging. The grid works often at its fuyll capacity already, upgrading the grid is costly and troublesome.
Efficiency of the fuel cell is rated 60+%. This is much higer than efficiency of ICE or efficiency of average electric power generation. Residual heat of power generation can be used for FCV-s, but not in case of BEV-s.
EV battery packs have very high initial and replacement costs.
EV batteries deteriorate significantly even when car is unused. Both extreme cold and heat damages batteries. Batteries are heavy and make EV heavy. Heavy car causes more damage to the roads and need stronger undercarridge => more metal. Heavy cars need more energy for acceleration.
Refueling of FCV is 5...10 times faster than of BEV.
Even 180 miles per charging is very little. FCV can drive 300+ miles with 5 kg of hydrogen. Hydrogen has very high energy density, that keeps FCV light and efficient. You can leave your FCV unattended for extended period (when you are travelling or stay in hospital, etc), without damaging the car.
PV1
Well-known member
Not sure what you mean by EV batteries decaying. The reported cycle life of the newer LEV-50N cells used in i-MiEVs built after the Summer of 2012 is 5,500 cycles to 80% of the original capacity. Given a full discharge and recharge every day, that is a life of 15 years and 341,000 miles, after which it is still useful for stationary storage applications. The cold only temporarily reduces range, while heat does affect cycle life. How well does a fuel cell stack hold up to these conditions? Given the size of the air intakes on the Mirai, apparently the fuel cell requires considerable cooling.
The battery to be used in the second generation Nissan LEAF holds 60 kWh in the same space as the current 24 or 30 kWh packs.
Hydrogen, when sourced from water, requires 3X the electricity needed to power a BEV, mile for mile. Instead of electricity being a straight line between a fuel source and an EV battery, the electricity is used to generate Hydrogen, which is then stored in tanks. There are two different energy carriers before the fuel is even put into the car. Then once it is in the car, it is converted back to electricity, stored in a battery, then goes on to power an electric motor. This extra double conversion results in considerable energy losses. Sure, you get the range, but so does a Tesla, and so will the 2018 LEAF, Bolt, and Tesla Model 3.
Most EVs charge at night, most consuming 6 kW or less, when there is capacity available on the grid to handle it. Our i-MiEVs only use 3,000 watts (the same as whole house air conditioning).
The DCQC standards issue is definitely aggravating. Tesla has the best connector design I think, but CHAdeMO is established worldwide. The SAE Combo connector is an attempt by domestic automakers to challenge Japanese EVs (or make the whole thing a mess and discourage people from buying EVs, who knows). So now, we have dual connector stations being installed.
As for refueling time, the Toyota Mirai is quoted as refueling in as little as 3 minutes. They say the same for refueling a gasoline car, yet a stop at the gas station almost always takes 10 minutes or more. On my day trip yesterday, my quick charge stops were 15 minutes and 13 minutes. So, with 28 minutes of away from home charging, I drove 131.9 miles with 16 miles left over in a 62-mile EV. The car was done charging as we finished eating at the first stop. Pretty good considering we had fast food for lunch.
The battery to be used in the second generation Nissan LEAF holds 60 kWh in the same space as the current 24 or 30 kWh packs.
Hydrogen, when sourced from water, requires 3X the electricity needed to power a BEV, mile for mile. Instead of electricity being a straight line between a fuel source and an EV battery, the electricity is used to generate Hydrogen, which is then stored in tanks. There are two different energy carriers before the fuel is even put into the car. Then once it is in the car, it is converted back to electricity, stored in a battery, then goes on to power an electric motor. This extra double conversion results in considerable energy losses. Sure, you get the range, but so does a Tesla, and so will the 2018 LEAF, Bolt, and Tesla Model 3.
Most EVs charge at night, most consuming 6 kW or less, when there is capacity available on the grid to handle it. Our i-MiEVs only use 3,000 watts (the same as whole house air conditioning).
The DCQC standards issue is definitely aggravating. Tesla has the best connector design I think, but CHAdeMO is established worldwide. The SAE Combo connector is an attempt by domestic automakers to challenge Japanese EVs (or make the whole thing a mess and discourage people from buying EVs, who knows). So now, we have dual connector stations being installed.
As for refueling time, the Toyota Mirai is quoted as refueling in as little as 3 minutes. They say the same for refueling a gasoline car, yet a stop at the gas station almost always takes 10 minutes or more. On my day trip yesterday, my quick charge stops were 15 minutes and 13 minutes. So, with 28 minutes of away from home charging, I drove 131.9 miles with 16 miles left over in a 62-mile EV. The car was done charging as we finished eating at the first stop. Pretty good considering we had fast food for lunch.
ed5000
Well-known member
As I understand it a fuel cell vehicle is a battery electric vehicle with small battery pack and a fuel cell stack and some hydrogen tanks to generate electricity for the battery pack and ultimately the motor. Right now the hydrogen would be hard to get and more expensive. Wouldn't people just start clamoring for a plug in fuel cell just like people were clamoring for plug in hybrids?
Battery electric cars need a grid that needs thousands of times more energy to build, than the car needs for driving. Production of aluminum and copper is very energy demanding.
Batteries deteriorate, it is a fact. Too high and too low temperatures are increasing the deterioration rate. Deterioration goes on even if the car is not driving. You may say, that there will be new generations of battery packs where deterioration rate is considerably lower, but current models don't have such wonder batteries yet. And current batteries proved that their specs were overestimated and real degradation is much faster.
Stop in gas station takes always 10 minutes? Really? 5 minutes max, if to pump in 50+ litres with some older slower pump. Usually the stop in gas station does not exceed 2 minutes.
Batteries deteriorate, it is a fact. Too high and too low temperatures are increasing the deterioration rate. Deterioration goes on even if the car is not driving. You may say, that there will be new generations of battery packs where deterioration rate is considerably lower, but current models don't have such wonder batteries yet. And current batteries proved that their specs were overestimated and real degradation is much faster.
Stop in gas station takes always 10 minutes? Really? 5 minutes max, if to pump in 50+ litres with some older slower pump. Usually the stop in gas station does not exceed 2 minutes.
rkarl89203
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Messages
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Perhaps in Estonia they have many hydrogen stations, yes?
Perhaps many are near bridges. Or underneath.
Just saying...
Perhaps many are near bridges. Or underneath.
Just saying...
I have heard, that in Japan they have quite decent network of hydrogen stations. Germany has many hydrogen stations too. There should be some in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and also in US, particularly in California (around 100 stations there). Estonia does not have any H2 stations yet.rkarl89203 said:
sandange
Well-known member
I do not support hydrogen as a fuel
The danger involved, the going from an oil to a possible hydrogen cartel,
besides other reasons
Electricity works for me as you can make your own in your back yard should it try to be exploited by the utility companies .
The danger involved, the going from an oil to a possible hydrogen cartel,
besides other reasons
Electricity works for me as you can make your own in your back yard should it try to be exploited by the utility companies .
tigger19687
Well-known member
sandange said:
Ditto.
Seems like twice the work to get to electric battery.
I'll keep my 'i' and when the Tesla "cheap" 200 mile car comes out I will get one of those
Map of H2 stations in Europe:
http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=EU&StationID=-1
And in NA:
http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=NA&StationID=-1
http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=EU&StationID=-1
And in NA:
http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=NA&StationID=-1
This could be a never-ending discussion, best left to websites which focus on such topics. For now, locking this thread.
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