DCQC Costs

[JoeS]

In California, nrg (which had acquired the liability for Enron's misdeeds of 15 years ago) had been given a sweetheart(?) settlement which required them to put in charging stations. Now, nrg EVgo I think is trying to make a viable business case for EVSEs and offers three different rate plans in my area:
ON-THE-GO
$14.95 monthly, no signup fee, DCQC 10¢/min, L2 of $1.00/hr, $29 early termination fee of 12mo. contract
LEVEL 2
$5.95 monthly, no signup fee, DCQC of $4.95/session + 20¢/min, L2 of $1.00/hr, $29 early termination fee of 12mo. contract
FLEX
$0 monthly, $4.95 signup fee, DCQC of $4.95/session + 20¢/min, L2 of $1.50/hr

I've signed up for the $0 monthly plan, as I rarely need DCQC since I usually find L2 sufficient at most of my destinations. Incidentally, is the standard abbreviation DCQC or DCFC?

A few weeks ago I drove our iMiEV down to Monterey (a little over 80 miles one way) and stopped at different nrg EVgo DCQC stations, one in Gilroy when going down the Salinas Valley, the other in Santa Cruz when coming back up the coast. They're the only DCQC available. My bill summary just came:

Going I used DCQC for 18 minutes to achieve 80% SOC
Coming I used DCQC for 14 minutes to achieve 80% SOC
Total of 32 minutes at $0.20/minute + 2 sessions at %4.95/session = $16.30

I'm too cheap to spend the $5 to experiment to see if the DCQC will push the SOC over 80% if I try enabling it again. In reality, I pulled the plug and topped up at a nearby Blink L2 (although I didn't really need to and left a note on the car saying ok to unplug) while we had breakfast on the way down to Monterey.

Had I taken my Gen1 Honda Insight, at its easy 75 miles/gallon, I'd have used a little over two gallons. With our gas costing a little under $3/gallon (had to look that up as I haven't been to a gas station in ages), that means my fuel would have cost $6.00. I guess if people drive regular cars which get 30mpg, the fuel cost would have been just about the same as the iMiEVs.

I had plugged into my friends' dryer outlet to fill up during our stay in Monterey - the bottle of wine would have been part of the deal no matter which car we took.

Are these DCQC prices in line with others' experiences?

Incidentally, in case someone is questioning the Gen1 Honda Insight's mpg, here's a snapshot I took of the dashboard of my Insight that had been destroyed when a drunk driver rear-ended me 1-1/2 years ago: that's 77.0mpg over its 94,520 miles lifetime! Happily I had bought a spare Insight when they were discontinued - the red one.

Edit: Being OT, instead of showing my two Insights within this post, here's the link to their photo:
http://www.katiekat.net/Vehicles/Insight/TwoInsightsS.jpg

 

[tigger19687]

I think that is the price that it is for ALL states they have DCQC plugs.

I'm too cheap to buy into them as they are not worth it near me and not enough around.

Also, if you unplug and plug back in they will charge you again (the $5 plus the min fee).

Here they say if you don't have a plan, it is $10 for 30 min.

f that...

 

[wmcbrine]

Yeah, that's EVgo. It's expensive as hell. But, when you need it, you need it. They own most of the CHAdeMO stations around here. (They're getting some competition now from Royal Farms, which has taken a state grant to put up a series of chargers. These are much cheaper.) BTW, AFAICT, the EVgo site lists the same plans for every area. I don't know why they bother asking where you are.

I have yet to really get a useful charge from L2, except at home. It just takes too long. Maybe if there was one at the movie theater...

 

[Don]

ON-THE-GO
$14.95 monthly, no signup fee, DCQC 10¢/min, L2 of $1.00/hr, $29 early termination fee of 12mo. contract
LEVEL 2
$5.95 monthly, no signup fee, DCQC of $4.95/session + 20¢/min, L2 of $1.00/hr, $29 early termination fee of 12mo. contract
FLEX
$0 monthly, $4.95 signup fee, DCQC of $4.95/session + 20¢/min, L2 of $1.50/hr

Those prices make it look like Enron is still alive and well . . . . and still fleecing the people of California

$5 to put $1 worth of electricity into a car (I guess at $4.95 *plus* 20 cents per minute it's actually closer to $8 or $9) would make me seriously think about . . . . buying a gas powered car!

Don

 

[PV1]

The local Greenlots units (only two, one Eaton and one Signet) both charge roughly $7/hour for DCQC. The Signet unit up north has a $7 minimum, so you are paying for the full hour. With these rates being set by the station owner, this is probably done to overcome the utility's demand charge. The Eaton unit at the airport has no minimum, so my charge only cost $2.20. I didn't try re-plugging.

All other quick chargers in the area are no charge to charge :lol: , at least until the PA Turnpike gets their Blink units up (3 years overdue, but finally starting to happen).

 

[Aerowhatt]

For now the Green Lot DCQC units here are free Local utility picking up the tab for the first 2 years. I've had a dicey experience with them only getting to charge about 60% of the times I have wanted to.

They will take the car to 92% if you restart after 80%. The other day I plugged into one at 72% and it took me to 92% in one "session". Interesting, and I wonder if the car did that or the charger??

As for costs at other locations they are too high IMO. They seem to be trying to match what it costs to drive on fossil fuels and in many instances costing more. That doesn't make sense when the costs of the commodity sold are considered. The chargers are incredibly expensive. How much does a gas pump cost?

I mean even at $7.00 per hour you are paying ~$16.00 for a gallon of gasoline worth of energy

Aerowhatt

 

[JoeS]

As for costs at other locations they are too high IMO. They seem to be trying to match what it costs to drive on fossil fuels and in many instances costing more. That doesn't make sense when the costs of the commodity sold are considered. The chargers are incredibly expensive. How much does a gas pump cost? I mean even at $7.00 per hour you are paying ~$16.00 for a gallon of gasoline worth of energy.

At this point in time, I cannot see a case for making money by installing a DCQC. In addition to initial charger cost and installation, you need solar and storage to offset unbelievably-high utility demand rates. This simply is not going to get amortized given our present relatively-low DCQC BEV demand - hmmm, wonder if amortization (over what timeframe?) would work if the chargers were utilized as often as gas-station pumps? Nevertheless, justifying DCQC installation as a customer-draw to a given retail location, that's another story. For example, coming back from Monterey we stopped at the Whole Foods DCQC in Santa Cruz and not only got our coffee there but also picked up some groceries ... in the 14 minutes it took to charge.

They will take the car to 92% if you restart after 80%. The other day I plugged into one at 72% and it took me to 92% in one "session". Interesting, and I wonder if the car did that or the charger??

In talking with some local developers playing with CHAdeMO, they were surprised to find out that, unlike the Leaf, the i-MiEV refuses to charge at a current lower than 5A (it shuts down the charger) with the charger sitting at 360vdc and able to feed the battery with as much current as it wants. I need to look closely at CaniOn the next time I DCQC and see what is happening, exactly, as my i-MiEVs DCQC charging always stops at exactly 80%SOC, as indicated on both the charging station and CaniOn.

 

[Aerowhatt]

I need to look closely at CaniOn the next time I DCQC and see what is happening, exactly, as my i-MiEVs DCQC charging always stops at exactly 80%SOC, as indicated on both the charging station and CaniOn.

I'm thinking it is the car regulating. Mine always stops at 80.5% on canion 80% on the station screen. Except for the one time when it wasn't very low (72%) then to 92% before stopping. This is also the case for restarting after the charger turns off at 80%. Starting (again) at 80% and bringing it on up to 92%. When it stops at 92% the car is pulling almost exactly what it does from level 2 charging according to canion. I'm wondering where the car (or charger) decides to finish at 80% or 92%. What state of charge for the initial hookup does this parameter change??

I agree about paying for one of the chargers with sales. I can't see it happening even if the thing were connected to a charging car 24/7. The numbers I have seen are $22k to $40k installed for these things. Even at (best price I have seen) $7 per hour 24/7 (which isn't possible, let alone realistic) it would take years to pay for one assuming 20% net "profit" on the services sales. Judging by the fact that 3 of our 4 units here have failed touch screens and one also has a connector that won't lock in. They are only months old and most already need repairs which are not getting done! It's not a model that has much hope of working as it presently exists.

Aerowhatt

 

[databeestje]

My experience varies wildly, one of them next to a mall is free, but the parking is 30 euro cents per 15 minutes, so basically I can charge about 5kWh for 30 cents, which doesn't seem like a bad deal

The other one I stop by on a regular basis is the opposite, it's 50 cents per minute, and since the i has a small battery it only charges at 30kW and that makes it even pricier. In the end I had 5,9kWh for 15 euros. Since I've been stopping the charge at 75% there since that's enough to get home from there on 2 or 3 bars.

 

[jray3]

Yeah, EVGO is way too expensive, and tries to force folk into the monthly subscription, just like Aerovironment. I'm boycotting and let 'em know at EVery chance. They also laid off their very good field rep, not a good omen for customer service. :roll:

Blink at $0.49/kWh is usually between $2.50 and $5/session, and the best deal around here is Puyallup Nissan, with 24/7 ChargePoint access for 17 cents/minute. That makes a full 10% to 80%, 21 minute fast charge cost $3.57

The Kia EV dealer is on GreenLots, currently at no fee with no other info posted.

Other Nissan dealers have varying policies- the worst being free but only for their own LEAF buyers, with no access for others.

 

[databeestje]

A small bit of background regarding the electricity prices in NL, it's 21 cents per kWh for residential grid, most public chargers are 30 cents per kWh, some with a 60 cent start tarif. To be fair, most public chargers are 11kW 3 phase, but because the mitsu/leaf/i3/soul all have a single phase charger onboard they won't charge more then 3kW. Except for the Zoe and the Tesla, they come standard with 3 phase charging which pretty much the entire EU uses.

So it's a bit more complicated then the american L1 vs L2 vs DCFC charging speeds. If the car does 3 phase 32 amps you suddenly have a 22kW Charger (Zoe, Leaf) which changes behaviour quite significantly.

We do have FastNed with it's DCFC stations beside the road, that's 85 cents per kWh without contract, but it's per kWh, so that's decent, no artificial time restrictions. So even if you used the DCFC for the 80-100 it would only cost the 85 cents per kWh. You can also get a contract with them, which makes sense if you use them everyday. They have a contract for 12 euros a month and you pay 35 cents per kWh, or a Flat fee subscription of 99 euros.

The Tesla charging there is probably charging with 22kW 3 phase, they have 44 kW available, as well as CCS and Chademo

 

[PV1]

Just got the bill from EVGo for my DC charge a couple of weeks ago. 26 minutes of charging (which never went above 50 amps :evil: ) cost me $10.15 ($4.95 session plus 26 minutes @ $0.20/min, so $5.20). Given the circumstances, glad to pay for a charge since I didn't have my cord and did a lot of driving while fighting snowy roads. What irked me was that the charge wasn't all that fast, but I have no clue if it was the car or the charger that was limiting the current. In a scary, big-brother kind of way, when I got back, I had a PlugInsights survey about paid quick charging sitting in my Inbox :? . But then when you look at how PlugShare makes money, I likely triggered the survey getting sent to me when I checked into a paid DCQC station.

This is only my second paid QC, and third paid charge overall.

 

[mdbuilder]

Snowy roads implies 0C temps. I'm pretty certain there is some max charge rate logic in the car for low temps...

 

[PV1]

It was definitely below freezing (I think low teens F), but the pack was decently warm at around 50 F. It was a dry snow.

 

[wmcbrine]

But then when you look at how PlugShare makes money

Wait -- how does PlugShare make money?

 

[PV1]

Meant to post this earlier:

http://company.plugshare.com/about/

http://company.plugshare.com/products/data/