Battery Replacement - Lessons Learned

[psyflyjohn]

Hi,

I have a 2012 Miev that now has 42K miles. The battery capacity was down to 34 miles per charge, and the car was becoming unusable. Talk about mileage anxiety. So that spurred me to return to the dealer for a 5 month battle for a replacement battery under warranty. Our dealer has a "specially trained" tech for electrics. The dealer ran several tests, including a "draw down" test which is supposed the be the last word in battery testing. It indicated that the battery was still functioning with 95% capacity intact. That test is either wildly inaccurate or bogus. By this time I was dealing with the regional manager and we were trading insults about who was lying. We agreed to have their mechanic fully charge the car overnight and then take it out and drive it to almost no charge. The results spoke for themselves - 33 miles.

So after 5 or 6 dealer visits I had the dealership on my side. Next, they had to convince the manufacturer of the need for a replacement battery. They made the same series of tests again, and were still dragging their feet on approving a replacement. The dealership owner intervened and finally convinced the manufacturer to replace it. (The mechanic confided to me that Mitsubishi didn't want to go to the expense - which he estimated their cost to be about $10K)


Lessons learned:

Expect a good deal of resistance when you return the car for battery replacement.
They will try to blame the low capacity on your driving habits, tendency to drive up hills, and other factors not under their control.
They will wave the draw down test in your face and claim you are lying. The test is bogus
They will do endless "adjustments" to the battery computer which result in nothing, but encourage you to give up.
A scathing review on Yelp actually turned the tide. The dealer and manufacturer realized that I was tenacious in dealing with them and wouldn't be b.s.'d.

I now also have a new Chevy Bolt, which is 10X the car that the Miev is. They make a nice complementary pair - one for local chores like going to the store, and the other for long trips. All supplied by my large solar system. Life is good again....

 

[Phximiev]

Can you ask the dealer what kind of cells were originally installed? LEV50 or LEV50N?

We were just in San Diego with our Volt, enjoyed the beaches immensely.

 

[kiev]

Can you ask the dealer what kind of cells were originally installed? LEV50 or LEV50N?

How would the dealer know what cells were used in the battery pack?

 

[PV1]

Most dealers, at least of the experiences I've either had or read/heard about, wouldn't know this detailed of a question. I'd almost guarantee you'll be met with a :| .

Mitsubishi changed to LEV50n cells sometime in the summer of 2012, after most of our cars were manufactured. If you look in the door jamb of the driver's door, one of the stickers should list a month/year of manufacture. My cars are January and February of 2012, and both shipped with LEV50 cells. Since Bear got a new pack in 2015, it now has LEV50n cells. The difference is rather apparent as they take a charge better, which makes for slightly shorter DCQC sessions and allows level 2 to go almost to 100% before ramping down.

 

[JoeS]

psyflyjohn, thank you for the update. So far, when the battery pack has demonstrated a problem such as a defective cell, Mitsubishi has been outstanding in immediately replacing the pack. Yours is the first one that has had a serious range loss with no individual cell problem, but I'm surprised at the resistance from Mitsu that you experienced. I'm happy that your dealer stuck up for you, and with a new pack you're good for many years to come, especially as you'll probably get the LEV50N cells.

 

[Don]

I'm happy that your dealer stuck up for you, and with a new pack you're good for many years to come, especially as you'll probably get the LEV50N cells.

I wouldn't bank on that

I know if I was running the circus, I would be taking in all the defective packs replaced under warranty and analyzing what problems they had and replacing any defective cells (with good used cells from other failed packs) and thoroughly testing the pack. Those 'refurbished' old packs would be what *I* would be using for new warranty claims - Why put a brand new $10K pack in a 5 year old car which has a value of about half that?

I might be completely wrong . . . . but if I was in charge of the Mitsu warranty program, that's how I would be running it. The warranty is just to make the car serviceable again - Nobody is guaranteed a 'new' battery. Refurbishing old packs would save 75 or 80% of the cost of warranty claims and I'm sure they know that

Don

 

[Phximiev]

I'm happy that your dealer stuck up for you, and with a new pack you're good for many years to come, especially as you'll probably get the LEV50N cells.

I wouldn't bank on that

I know if I was running the circus, I would be taking in all the defective packs replaced under warranty and analyzing what problems they had and replacing any defective cells (with good used cells from other failed packs) and thoroughly testing the pack. Those 'refurbished' old packs would be what *I* would be using for new warranty claims - Why put a brand new $10K pack in a 5 year old car which has a value of about half that?

I might be completely wrong . . . . but if I was in charge of the Mitsu warranty program, that's how I would be running it. The warranty is just to make the car serviceable again - Nobody is guaranteed a 'new' battery. Refurbishing old packs would save 75 or 80% of the cost of warranty claims and I'm sure they know that

Don

I couldn't agree more. Given the openly dishonest conduct by Mitsubishi and their admissions concerning falsifying their mileage representations, which includes by the way, the mileage representation for the iMiev, IMO they may do anything to reduce the cost of their warranty claims or reject them as long as possible. See the forum topics here for a discussion of the Mitsubishi admissions.

The question remains as to what cell is in your replacement pack? It wouldn't surprise me at all that Mitsubishi used older LEV50 cells rather than the newer LEV50N cells. It also wouldn't surprise me if the specifications for the LEV50N cell were falsified either.

If there is an effort on the part of iMiev owners, first it should be to formulate a way to identify the cells used in the packs. My initial thoughts are to stick a small camera of some kind through the AC duct to see if the cells can be photographed (taking all safety precautions also). After that, to formulate a replacement cell of some kind.

I have posted this before, but it is worth repeating here, to wit, every purchaser of an iMiev should know what cell is in the vehicle and should know the condition of those cells before purchasing the car.

Given their admissions, caution should be exercised.

 

[phb10186]

I'm not so sure sending the pack back to japan, analysis, rebuilding and recomissioning would actually be cheaper... Though I may be wrong.

The cost of recomissioning stuff is pretty high, and would have to be offset against the substantial volume discounts they get... meaning that the pack wouldn't cost them nearly as much as 10k.

Saying that, I could well be wrong. I would have thought that they would scrap the old packs to a recycler somewhere, and swallow the cost of the packs that fail...

Do Teala repair old packs? I'm pretty sure Nissan do not.

 

[Don]

Tesla packs are arranged in replaceable modules, either 13 or 15 of them in the complete pack IIRC. I would bet if they have a failure, it's as simple as changing out the defective module. In addition, they use thousands of small cells, each fused separately so that if a single cell shorts out, the fuse blows and you've lost maybe 1/10th of 1% of the total capacity of the pack which would not even be noticed. One bad cell means the end of the entire pack on our cars

Don

 

[Phximiev]

I'm not so sure sending the pack back to japan, analysis, rebuilding and recomissioning would actually be cheaper... Though I may be wrong.

The cost of recomissioning stuff is pretty high, and would have to be offset against the substantial volume discounts they get... meaning that the pack wouldn't cost them nearly as much as 10k.

Saying that, I could well be wrong. I would have thought that they would scrap the old packs to a recycler somewhere, and swallow the cost of the packs that fail...

Do Teala repair old packs? I'm pretty sure Nissan do not.

I discussed replacing cells and packs with Courtesy Chevrolet in Phoenix with respect to our Volt if needed. The service manage said that they have a machine that holds the old pack, removes the bolts holding it together, allows them to insert a new cell and then put it back together. His comment, "no big deal". Probably works the same for the Bolt.

 

[DocJr]

Hello San Diego i MiEV owner,

I too have a 2012 that is getting tired (down to about 40 miles if I am really easy on the pedal). I wanted to know which dealer replaced the batteries as I was told a couple of years ago that we had to go to Anaheim. Thanks.

 

[DocJr]

Oh, and my car was made in March, 2012. So no "N" batteries I would presume

 

[siai47]

I don't know if it means anything or not but I had two I-MiEV's built in 2012 about three months apart. I had the pack out of both of them and noticed the pack in the earlier car had cells wrapped in a blue colored vinyl and the later car had cells covered in yellow vinyl. Other than that the batteries looked physically the same. Maybe that was a simple identifier of the "N" cell vs. the older style cell.

 

[jray3]

Siai47, thank you so much for coming back to this forum once in a while and sharing your hard earned knowledge! Very soon I will be replacing my pack with a slightly newer collision salvage pack and will try to take a look at the cell colors in the process .

 

[acensor]

"...I now also have a new Chevy Bolt, which is 10X the car that the Miev is..."

As I mentioned in another post, even though I don't own one, I rather like the Volt...... particularly now that there are good used ones out there coming off lease at prices that make them very attractive to the kind of buyer whose use pattern fits the Volt well and who understands what they're buying.
As someone else alluded to in this thread, one of its several well engineered features is the ease of replacing individual bad or substandard cells in the battery pack.

If I were to own only one vehicle the Volt would be at or near the top of my short list.
And, wouldn't you know it...... Chevy will stop making the Volt after the end of this model year per what I've read/heard.

 

[PV1]

At the risk of venturing further OT, I have heard the same for the Volt. March 2019 is the end of the line. Probably several reasons:

1. Tesla Model 3
2. Chevy Bolt cannibalizing sales (100% electric and goes almost as far for nearly the same price)
3. GM re-structuring to go after Ford on truck/SUV front (no more sedans)
4. Charging infrastructure is growing fast.

In my area when talking EVs, it used to be the Volt as a recommendation for single-car owner that does both short trips and occasional long trips. Now, the recommendation is almost always Model 3 or used Model S (with the occasional Prius/C-Max for serious road-trippers), and the Bolt for someone who stays fairly local (Tesla's charging network is tough to beat).

It won't be long until the Model 3 is the only American brand sedan that anyone will be able to buy. Ford stopped all cars except Mustang for 2020, Chevy's gutting it's lineup (Impala is the latest victim), and Dodge only has the Charger, Challenger, and Ram as it's entire lineup.

To bring this back on topic a bit, Mitsubishi has been pretty good at replacing defective/failed packs (won't charge to 16 bars), but expect a challenge when trying to get a replacement due to reduced range (still charges to 16 bars, but doesn't go far), considering that most of us had to sign a waiver acknowledging the differences of what's covered under the battery warranty. I still wonder when 3rd party cells will be available. Shouldn't be too difficult to pack a box with 18650 or 2170 cells, although I'm personally not too concerned about that at the moment since I've designated my i-MiEVs as collector cars and both are parked for the winter. The Bolt is my daily driver now.

 

[acensor]

Apologies for feeding this off-topic branch of the thread....
But, re....
"......At the risk of venturing further OT, I have heard the same for the Volt. March 2019 is the end of the line. Probably several reasons:
1. Tesla Model 3
2. Chevy Bolt cannibalizing sales (100% electric and goes almost as far for nearly the same price)...."

IMO one really can't say a Bolt "goes almost as far" as a Volt.
I get that you might mean "on one charge plus one full 9 gallon tank of gasoline"....
which with works out to about 355 to 400 miles.
It's not just that with that take that the Volt handily beats the Bolt's admittedly impressive ~200 miles.
But the real reason that statement's really unfair is that the Volt's range is essentially unlimited because you can pull into the next gas station and in 5 minutes you're good for another ~300 miles.

 

[PV1]

That's right. The Gen2 Volts go further. My comparison was with a Gen1 Volt.

 

[SuzanneParrish]

Today I paid $240 to have Mitsubishi tell me my 40 miles per charge on my 2012 iMiEV is normal. I still love my car, but this is depressing. I'm told that the battery shouldn't degrade much further. I hope this is the case. Drive 40 minutes, charge for three hours; whoo-hoo!

 

[kiev]

Sorry to hear Suzanne. Where are you located, maybe someone close by can use one of the phone apps (Canion or Hobdrive or the other one) to do an independent check on whether your pack is normal or defective and you are entitled to a new pack under warranty. Or you could buy the dongle for $50 bucks and load the app for your phone.