PREPARATION FOR COLD SEASONS

[RobbW]

I have no results to report, but intend to experiment with the following this winter:

• a radiant heating panel on the garage floor, to keep pack temp around 65 degrees
  insulation of the heater and hoses as described by others,
  using a new nearby Blink station for pre-heat before my homebound commute

Not sure how comfortable I would feel about using a heating pad to keep my battery pack warm during the winter. Two reasons:

1). Winter driving quite often means snow driving. Tracking snow into a garage with an electric heating pad on the floor could spell trouble as the snow melts.
2). I would imagine any electric heating pad worth anything would draw so much power as to make regular use cost-prohibitive. I remember one winter a couple years back we fostered a litter of puppies. We kept them in an unused room in our basement, but the room would get pretty chilly overnight. So, I used a ceramic space heater to keep the room at a minimum temp for pups' comfort. My electric bill skyrocketed from an average $120 per month to $300+ per month for the two months we had the pups! Obviously, a ceramic space heater isn't exactly the same as a radiant heating pad, but anything that continuously draws enough watts to keep an area warm is going to be costly.

 

[jray3]

2). I would imagine any electric heating pad worth anything would draw so much power as to make regular use cost-prohibitive.

My ideal would be a far-infrared radiant panel, but will probably try something similar to the Cozy Legs first. (glass panel far-infrared are cost prohibitive to buy, and a bit risky to be driving over ;-)
These little guys use a max of 150W, as opposed to a 1500W ceramic heater. The key to radiant heaters is getting a wavelength that warms the intended object, as opposed to warming the air and then stirring that up. Even though 1/10 the power, they've been well accepted by school secretaries in my district.

http://www.amazon.com/Indus-Tool-CL-Flat-Panel-150-Watt-Radiant/dp/B0009HMFPM/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1375463373&sr=8-8&keywords=infrared+panel+heaters

 

[sandange]

RobbW
Here is another discussion on winter driving that you might want to check out

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=224

 

[RobbW]

Thanks, I'm heading over there to read up on it now! I had originally tried doing a search here for "cold weather" and other various term combinations, but it seemed no matter what I put in, I always got a silly error stating that my search terms were too common. Go figure! So, I started just scanning the pages of thread titles for anything that sounded vaguely related to cold weather driving. Most of the threads on that topic must be several months old as I didn't see too many of them within the first couple pages of topics.

 

[RobbW]

2). I would imagine any electric heating pad worth anything would draw so much power as to make regular use cost-prohibitive.

My ideal would be a far-infrared radiant panel, but will probably try something similar to the Cozy Legs first. (glass panel far-infrared are cost prohibitive to buy, and a bit risky to be driving over ;-)
These little guys use a max of 150W, as opposed to a 1500W ceramic heater. The key to radiant heaters is getting a wavelength that warms the intended object, as opposed to warming the air and then stirring that up. Even though 1/10 the power, they've been well accepted by school secretaries in my district.

http://www.amazon.com/Indus-Tool-CL-Flat-Panel-150-Watt-Radiant/dp/B0009HMFPM/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1375463373&sr=8-8&keywords=infrared+panel+heaters

These are both very interesting devices! I wonder if it would be possible to use them inside the car for cabin heating in addition to warming the battery pack from beneath? I do keep my i-MiEV in the garage when not being used. Obviously, during the winter, the garage is going to be marginally warmer than the direct outside temperature. At what temperature should you keep your garage to maintain maximum battery effectiveness? I have never heated my garage in the past, but a couple of these radiant devices might be warranted if it makes that big of a difference.

 

[alohart]

I had originally tried doing a search here for "cold weather" and other various term combinations, but it seemed no matter what I put in, I always got a silly error stating that my search terms were too common.

The built-in search sucks as you discovered. Instead, try directing google.com to search only this site for "cold weather":

site:myimiev.com "cold weather"

 

[RobbW]

Thanks, Art. Will try that in the future!

 

[Don]

I would imagine any electric heating pad worth anything would draw so much power as to make regular use cost-prohibitive. I remember one winter a couple years back we fostered a litter of puppies. We kept them in an unused room in our basement, but the room would get pretty chilly overnight. So, I used a ceramic space heater to keep the room at a minimum temp for pups' comfort. My electric bill skyrocketed from an average $120 per month to $300+ per month for the two months we had the pups! Obviously, a ceramic space heater isn't exactly the same as a radiant heating pad, but anything that continuously draws enough watts to keep an area warm is going to be costly.

I'm assuming a radiant pad wouldn't be 1500 watts and it would only be used overnight while the car was there

If your ceramic heater was only used overnight, it wasn't responsible for the extra $180+ in your electric bill either, Robb. I think you had something else going on. A 1500 watt ceramic heater operated full blast (on the highest setting with the thermostat maxxed so it never cycled off) ten hours per day would cost you only 15Kwh per day . . . . about the same as recharging your iMiEV - If your juice is around ten cents like mine is, that's just $1.50 per day or $45 a month

Don

 

[RobbW]

We left the heater running 24/7. So that's why it jacked our bill so high. I know it's not a fair comparison to using a heater only overnight for a few hours, but I'm always hesitant to use a heater now because of that experience.

 

[jray3]

These are both very interesting devices! I wonder if it would be possible to use them inside the car for cabin heating in addition to warming the battery pack from beneath? I do keep my i-MiEV in the garage when not being used. Obviously, during the winter, the garage is going to be marginally warmer than the direct outside temperature. At what temperature should you keep your garage to maintain maximum battery effectiveness?

This NREL presentation says on slide 13 to keep the battery between 15 and 35 degrees C (59 to 95 F) for optimum performance.
http://www.sae.org/events/aars/pres...ermal Mgmt Tech to Improve Life and Range.pdf
However, slide #11 only seems to indicate 10% capacity loss at 0 C. That's less than I've observed. Seems like a pack temp of at least 60 degrees would make winter living easy. I think that any radiant heater would be more effective than heating the whole garage (unless you've got radiant pipes in the slab).

 

[MLucas]

RobbW here's my take on your situation. I run 60 miles a day on the open highway for 90% of my commute with little opportunity for regen or coasting. Basically, I have to use all I got to make the round trip in the winter time. I do have a plug in my parking garage that I use in the winter time and know one has said anything to me about it, I did ask but never got a response back. I plugged in all winter long and with a camera pointed directly at my parking spot (which isn't even a parking spot, just nudge the car up against a wall and out of the flow of traffic) no one has said anything to me about it.

Anyway - I would time your charge to start four hours before you need to use the car in the morning. Basically, the car should finish charging just as you need it. I've read this is a good technique for keeping your batteries warm and optimal for the winter commute. The charging process will warm the batteries slightly and the use of them while commute will keep the heat inside. I plan to monitor the temp and see how this theory holds water this winter.

Next thing, since your passenger time is very small - don't bother with the heat. The preheated car will be more than toasty for that short trip. Remember to use defrost and not the heat setting on the remote - defrost works better and definitely use your L2. L1 doesn't give you that much heat. The tricky part is to get everyone in the car without keeping the doors open. You'll have to train the family to jump in and close the doors. Tough to do with kids, they seem to want to doddle a bit before getting into the car. You'll also have to remember to preheat every morning since preheating can't be set to a particular time. Winter driving takes discipline to be effective for the distance you plan to drive - with getting kids and yourself ready its easy to forget to do this.

I would look around your work place to find out where the nearest charging station is located at. Mine is a mile away if I'm not using the plugs in the garage. You may come in low and you'll need this to get you home. If I come in low, then I beg a friend from work to pick me up and drop me off at the charging location. Just be prepared! Also, see if there are alternate routes that you can take slower - maybe leaving earlier is a possiblity but maybe not.

I followed the advice of insulating my car and heater last year and I felt it helped out a bit. I don't use the heater at all in the winter during my day to day commute, I feel I can do that because the heat stays in the car longer.

Finally, be prepared to have a blast in the car during the winter. They are a lot of fun to drive especially when you turn off the ASC. I didn't bother with snow tires and didn't have any problems with traction last year using the OEM tires. I was easilly able to use the fast lane passing slow going front wheel and four wheel drive cars. The ASC works great and the rear motor/rear drive setup keeps the weight over the wheels.

 

[jray3]

I want to do the thermaflex insulation job on my heater, but to take it further, has anyone examined transplanting the Prius coolant "thermos bottle" into an iMiEV? For those cold-climate i-drivers, the added weight could be more than offset by storing some preheated hot water.
http://john1701a.com/prius/presentations/2004-prius_tech-presentation_38.htm

 

[Llecentaur]

I am very near to installing a Webasto for next winter.

Giving it one more thought, I found this

http://maradyne.com/maradyne_mobile/products/heaters/9000.html

I already have a 20A 36V Battery.

Can the techies on the forum help find out if this heater is powerful enough (I believe it is an air heater) and how long would a 20A 36V battery be able to run it?

My assu potion is that if it is not a toy and can run one to two hours on the battery, then it might be a good alternative and the car would stay totally green

Thanks

 

[siai47]

I have never understood why Mitsubishi (and for that matter, Nissan) didn't replace the hot water heater core with a resistance "grid" or ceramic element. They would heat much quicker and be easier to regulate then trying to control the water temperature in the heater loop. Resistance heaters, whether heating water or air have the same poor efficiency. At least Nissan now offers a heat pump on their upscale models of the LEAF. I have driven electrics with "hair dryer" heaters---Kurbwatt) and ones with auxiliary gasoline heaters---S10-E and heat pumps---Rav4 EV. Unless it is very cold, the heat pump does a great job. But when it is really nasty, the S10-E could roast you right out (when the heater worked) and never affected the range of the vehicle.

 

[jaraczs]

Giving it one more thought, I found this

http://maradyne.com/maradyne_mobile/products/heaters/9000.html

I already have a 20A 36V Battery.

Can the techies on the forum help find out if this heater is powerful enough (I believe it is an air heater) and how long would a 20A 36V battery be able to run it?

I think the specs on the product page refer to the blower motor, not the heating itself. 33,000 btu/hr is 9671 Watts, ~2 times of iMiEV heater capacity.
That webasto combustion heater is the best option, I think. The problem is how and where to fit it in.

I have an idea of returning blown air from the battery pack back to the cabin to avoid heat leakage. Will post it in more detail but not likely to execute any time soon.

 

[Llecentaur]

One of forum members from Norway kindly provided a manual and part list for installation.

I have a rough translation into English. From memory the actual Webasto fits near the front wheel arch on driver side. Installation is supposed to last 4 hours which seems optimistic.

My garage has offered to help me but I need to do it myself and still pay their hours... Not sure i will have one working Day to give to the project and they are closed on weekends.


To come back to the electric air heater, -2 times of heater capacity seems good enough, assuming one can fit the ceramic heater somewhere.

Now is my calculation correct that at 3 amps, a 20 A 36v liFepo4 battery would give hours of service ? Seems like a no brainier if heating capacity is sufficient.

 

[RobertC]

Giving it one more thought, I found this

http://maradyne.com/maradyne_mobile/products/heaters/9000.html

I already have a 20A 36V Battery.

Unfortunately, this cab heater hooks up to a vehicles coolant system using the waste heat generated by internal combustion engines and would not work in an electric vehicle.

If you had excess disposable income and wanted to stay green you could purchase a 12 volt 100 amp-hour lithium battery capable of delivering 50 amps continuously ($1,300.00)
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/uploads/files/10555/large/SB100-Data-Sheet.jpg
and use a 500 watt electric space heater ($30.00) with a 12 volt to 120 volt inverter ($50.00).
The battery would last for a couple hours.

 

[Llecentaur]

Well although expensive, it would not be so much more than installing the Webasto, but still a compromise in terms of functionality.

 

[RobertC]

The 12 volt 100 amp-hour lithium battery will charge the same as the existing car battery in the i-MiEV. I wonder if you could replace the existing battery? The dimensions are 12.75x6.5x8.7 inches LxWxH. Would it fit? You would essentially be adding another 1.2 kWh to the battery capacity (12Vx100Ah).

 

[Llecentaur]

Yes but wehnelt thé car is running, thé main battery is providentiel thé 12 V curèrent in priorité, therefore it would defeat our purpose.

Actually, I am thinking that I do have two large deep cycle batteries at hand with 95 amp original capacity but unless using the inverter that will reduce efficiency I am worried a directly connected 12 V heater would de pleat it below its safe voltage... Here I am assuming inverter would cut below operational voltage.