Battery Failure?

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Ozimiev said:
I read about calibration, however tonymil's experience shows that what actually happens with 'aging' will be that a full charge just won't get to the top of the gauge anymore ? i.e. meter still reads 16kWh full scale.
Or is calibration in this case mislead by a cell fault ? Well no, it just tells kWh as usual.
I think Tony's experience (only recharging to 14 or 15 bars) is just the indication of the failed cells - A normally ageing pack will always show 16 bars, but each bar will represent less stored energy than it did when the pack was new

Another test would be to charge at lowest possible charge current. Use 100V level 1. (I would use my charge-amps 230V J1772 set to 6A for instance). The lower the charging current the more chance of battery equalising. Compare with DC fast charge that has to back out at 80% SOC as there is risk of imbalance.
Here in the USA, we recharge even slower than that - 120 volts @ 8 amps, which would be the same as 240 @ 4 amps if your EVSE would go that low. Tony already gave that a try more than once I believe

I think his experience shows that our BMS is very well designed, as it accounts even for bad cells and doesn't try to balance those once it confirms that they are faulty. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have allowed him to keep driving it if there was any danger posed by the bad cells

Don
 
Don said:
A normally ageing pack will always show 16 bars, but each bar will represent less stored energy than it did when the pack was new

Do we know that's true? I don't think my experience alone proves that. It may be that I have reduced bars because I have reduced total voltage, not because I have reduced number of cells taking a charge. It may be that it takes a significant drop in voltage storage capacity before aging cells result in lost bars. Any other experiences here?

Tony
 
That's a question I have too.
Don seemed supremely confident on how the power meter works... although I can't see technical backup of the assumptions involved. Can anyone direct me to statements by mitsi of what to expect ?
I've only got 27,900km up so far and I still see 1 bar = 1kWh and the pack (+charger efficiency 95%) taking full 16.6kWh from externally metered power so I can't offer experience of even 1kWh of capacity loss and how that effects the power meter.

Tony, have mitsi replaced your battery pack yet ?
 
I feel what Don is saying is correct. Tony is showing less bars because that is all his pack can hold due to the failed cells. You have to remember the lithium ion cells discharge curve is very linear from topped off to drained. It's much like winter driving with these cars, we still show 16 bars even though it takes more energy to go the same distance. With a degraded pack after like five years you'll still see the same 16 bars but it will take more of those bars to go the same distance in the same type of temperature. Remember, these cells are still good even after they have lost 70% of their capacity for solar array storage. The life isn't gone in them, they just aren't able to be used in an electric vehicle application.
 
My understanding is that it's a 'state of charge' indicator, which happens to have 16 bars - No relation to the fact that the (new) battery has about 16 Kwh or energy - One bar does not equate to one KWh of stored energy. 16 bars is fully charged, 8 bars is half a charge and does not mean 16 Kwh or 8 Kwh of energy remaining

Assuming the above is correct (and I believe it is) then when the battery ages and only has 80% of it's former 16 Kwh available (12.8 Kwh) the 16 bars will still represent a 'full charge' but the amount available will now be much less than 16 Kwh . . . . more like 13 Kwh, but the SOC indicator won't show 13 bars - 13 Kwh will be a full charge and the gauge will still show 16 bars when it's 'full'

I *think* the failure to recharge to 16 bars indicates a problem in the battery pack, which would cause the owner to immediately contact Mitsubishi to see about getting it fixed - Mitsu knows that eventually the pack will lose 15% or 20% of it's capacity and this is normal . . . . they sure wouldn't design it so that everyone called the dealership when the pack was reduced to 15 Kwh by making the gauge only show 15 bars

Don
 
Don's explanation is supported by Mitsubishi's suggested fuel gauge calibration routine that involves discharging the battery pack to below 3 bars followed by a full charge. This would allow any battery pack capacity degradation to be measured by the fuel gauge firmware which would recalibrate the fuel gauge based on this reduced capacity so that it would still display 16 bars when fully charged.

The battery pack charge level gauge on my Honda Insight works the same way. But it sounds like the battery pack charge level gauge on the Leaf doesn't recalibrate to a decreased battery pack capacity instead displaying fewer the all its bars when a battery pack with reduced capacity is fully charged.
 
Yes, I hear what you are saying re the recalibration of the gauge but...
1) Tony's experience that showed 14 bars with no other driver indication of a fault suggests the contrary (albiet with a possible battery fault, but un-flagged to driver) Indeed this may make most sense.
2) My iMiEV (28,032km so far) experience sheds no light on a changing battery capacity and its effect on the meter. Are there high km owners out there, who measure their recharge kWh externally, and can report a change ?

The leaf has 2 bar meters. One ( less prominent ) shows the overall battery capacity that the pack is historically up to and the main state of charge meter. It is this overall capacity meter that owners are observing showing reducing capacity, by as much as 30%? in some cases.
 
Ozimiev said:
Yes, I hear what you are saying re the recalibration of the gauge but...
1) Tony's experience that showed 14 bars with no other driver indication of a fault suggests the contrary (albiet with a possible battery fault, but un-flagged to driver) Indeed this may make most sense.
When the battery ages and loses 10% or 15% or even 20% of it's capacity, it still recharges to the same voltage cap it did when it was new - It just has a lower capacity

I'm sure a part of the computation that the charge indicator ('Fuel gauge') uses is the voltage on the pack - Full voltage recharge, 16 bars on the meter. Pretty sure it also counts amps used and amps replaced, which is why it needs recalibrating as the pack ages and has less capacity

Tony's pack with 2 bad cells could not recharge to the correct voltage and I believe that is why a full charge would not show 16 bars. Makes sense to me

Don
 
Yes, agreed.
The energy meter is in kWh not Ah (as was common in EV conversions) or volts.
It counts in and out kW and a large part of the 'recalibration' is the clearing of cumulative errors from counting in/out.
Still, no driver fault was flagged in Tony's case ? (meter not reaching 16 bars was hardly the flag of a fault, though Tony was attentive enough to pick that up. Many drivers, particulary in fleet situations would not have noticed).
The BMU/ECU hopefully knew there was a problem. A flag for attention would be a reasonable ask.

Tony, we await with interest the outcome of your battery swap.
 
Before your battery is swapped out, if you charge the car until it stops (however many bars it's at now), then unplug and wait a few hours, then plug it back in, will it start charging, or does it just act the same as fully charged on any other car?

I think the meter is definitely SOC, and since the few bad cells are cutting off the charge early, the gauge is not going to be full. If all cells wore down evenly and were balanced, even with the reduced capacity, the gauge would show full since the pack would actually be at full charge (for the available capacity). Since these few cells have suffered faults, they may have lost a large portion of their capacity and are hitting the HVC. If the BMS could bring these cells down enough so they hit the same voltage as the rest of the pack near the top end, the gauge may go back to 16 bars, but you would lose bars and miles fast because the whole pack would be down to the lowest capacity cell.

The car watches voltage as well, so that could explain how the last 2 bars disappear so quickly on normally functioning vehicles. NiMH's (and I believe lithiums, as well) hold a fairly linear and narrow voltage throughout most of its discharge, but right at the end, voltage sags rather quickly to LVC. The BMS sees voltage starting to go down faster, so it cuts away at the last bar or two, prompting the driver to shut off extras (HVAC, heated seat, radio) and slow down. Since power draw is reduced (most likely), the voltage will come up a little, resulting in more available energy without damage to the battery, leaving us with more "no-bar" reserve. I noticed on my car, even without any bars, I had 3 miles remaining and no turtle.
 
Ozimiev said:
Still, no driver fault was flagged in Tony's case ? (meter not reaching 16 bars was hardly the flag of a fault, though Tony was attentive enough to pick that up. Many drivers, particulary in fleet situations would not have noticed).
The BMU/ECU hopefully knew there was a problem. A flag for attention would be a reasonable ask.
If no warning light illuminated reflecting a DTC that was set, I'd be quite surprised. The failure of a couple of battery cells should be easy to detect, so a DTC should be set.

Tony, did a warning light illuminate?
 
alohart said:
Tony, did a warning light illuminate?

No, that was one of the problems with the car, it gave no warning and is still giving no warning. Sorry I haven't posted in a while, life has been crazy lately. I'm still with my original battery but I was called by Mitsu from Calif. to tell me the new battery would arrive on the west coast soon and would arrive in NY around August 15. I have to say it's been rough keeping within the car's limited range, especially since this has been a one-car family since my son totaled our Elantra this past winter. One of the headaches I've had to deal with is searching for a suitable used car to replace the Elantra and it's been hard to see as many cars as I'd like to on a given day because of my MiEV's limited range. On the bright side, I've learned that all the Chili's Restaurants in my area have chargepoint charging stations. Chili's has become my favorite chain restaurant for lunch or dinner!!

More good news, After the call telling me the batter would arrive mid-August, Mitsu called me to apologize for the long wait, to thank me for my patience and to offer to "do something" in return. He asked that I send him proof of my monthly car payment so hopefully that means there will be some cash for me.

As for the battery, its seems to have diminished a bit more since this all started. I was regularly getting 65 miles range remaining on a full charge even without the three bars. Now I'm getting in the high 50's.

So, that's my update for now.

Tony
 
My replacement battery has finally arrived. I'll be dropping my car off at the dealer today so it can be installed tomorrow.
 
Good news Tonymil !
You have our full attention on this battery replacement exercise.
Please flood us with detail !

Chili's charge. Does that come with rice ? Chili's here don't have parking let alone L1,L2 charge stations.
BTW, when it comes to full on DC fast charging stations, my nearest is 2900km away. :(
 
When I dropped my car off yesterday, the technician let me see everything that Mitsu shipped with the battery. Here are a couple of pics:

6OK4ERS.jpg


kLR3fzC.jpg


Mitsu shipped a lift, a cart, a black plastic container, numerous boxes, and that huge white metal container that presumably holds the battery and maybe some more tools and parts. Wow. I was told that my car will be ready this afternoon but I forgot to ask whether it will need to be charged. We'll see. The dealer also has to ship the old battery to California so the shipping packaging may also be included in all of this.

Tony
 
Holy cow! That is a lot of equipment to be shipped for one car's repair!!! I really hope everything goes well for you. BTW, that is the service bay at an actual dealership? Looks more like a serious motorhead's pimped-out home garage.
 
Just called the dealer, they have removed the old one but haven't installed the new yet, plus they expect to do a calibration which takes 1/2 a day so I'll get my car tomorrow at the earliest. I thought they were being optimistic when they told me last night that it would be ready today. :| At least they gave me a nice loaner car this time, a 2011 lancer. :)
 
I finally have my car back! I picked it up this morning fully charged and with a surprising 87 miles Range Remaining showing on the meter. I can't tell you how good it felt to see a number that high, I had been struggling to get RR's in the high 50's. I didn't receive any paperwork with the car but the tech promised to mail it all to me when it's ready. He also told me they had to undo some of my heater insulation that I had installed in order to swap the battery. I'll have to take a look and see just how much they removed. So I drove from the dealer to my office, about a ten mile trip and arrived in my parking lot with 78 miles range remaining, a very good sign! I avoided the highway but the speed limit on the roads I took varied from 30 to 40 and 50. I pretty much kept at the speed limit and still did not lose range.

By the way, I lost my owner's manual and can't remember if the manual indicates a "breaking in" period for the battery and what that involves. Can someone check that and let me know? I would greatly appreciate that.

Tony
 
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