Zelenec
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:21 am
Location: sLOVEnia
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:30 pm

iwatson wrote:The bigger problem will be putting an expensive battery into a 10 or 15 year old MIEV.

- I bought the car because it was cheap, not because it was the finest EV on the market.
- Its a cheap little basic economy car. The only reason it had such a high sticker price is because it has a $20,000 battery in it. Surely over 10 to 15 years the seats and interior appointments will show wear to the point that we'll be ready for something newer.
- Meanwhile battery tech, new models and designs, will most likely mean that in 10 to 15 years we can move on to an EV that's much better designed, with much better range and style.
- Of course, the industry could go the other way. With low gas prices --- In 10 to 15 years we could remember the years of 2011-2016 as the days when car makers dabbled in Electric cars. If that scenario were to play out then, yes, we'll be looking for ways to keep our antique EV's going by adding replacement batteries.


I couldn't agree more :)
Tired of smelly garage - switched to EV!
Zelenec = Greeny, Treehugger, Ecofan

DogMan12
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am
Location: Kooskooskie, WA

Re: Future battery replacement

Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:09 am

I will after 5 yr zero interest be into my MiEV about $16,000. I am already disappointed but not shocked at the resale value. I suppose if I get 8 years and 80-90,000 miles for $16k, with zero value at the end, that is not terrible, but not what I hoped for, either.

IF the suspension and other major systems are functioning, and IF I can get a Batt for less than $400/kwh installed, I BELIEVE I will do it. But as you have said, what will the context be in 2020?
Dog Man Son
2012 iMiEV
We call it not Raspberry, but Metallic Malbec

jray3
Posts: 1329
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:24 am

iWatson hit the mark- our "i"s may not economically justify a second life. However, part of our master plan for MR BEAN is that he'll turn ten (and be approaching 180 kilomiles) as my daughter gets her license, and by then the nest egg should have hatched a TESLA or equivalent. Nothing like a range-compromised little people pod for the girl to make her daily 5-mile run to high school and extracurricular activities within the immediate area, but not allow spur-of-the-moment joyrides to the big city! 8-) If MR BEAN survives the high school driver (and her little brother), he'll either be due for retirement or a loving restoration! My main concern is whether a replacement battery is needed before then. If the car's practical range falls to 40 miles much before the teen needs wheels, that would probably be my trigger for pack replacement. Economics could push that trigger down to 30 miles of 'autonomy', since we have fast-charging (and a pusher trailer), but even my enthusiasm for public charging adventures has its limits.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 70,000 miles
i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

iwatson
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:12 am
Location: Bartlett (Memphis), Tennessee

Re: Future battery replacement

Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:42 am

Jray3,

My daughter turns 19 next month and although she likes the i-miev and will drive it, she wants to take my Volt away from me, or better yet, "daddy buy me a Camaro".

Good luck talking your daughter into a limited range, all-electric car. May sound good on paper (Trust me I have same thoughts as you "keeps um close to home", "she can't wander too far off", "It's all she needs for the little bit of driving she does", "No way I'm paying for gas for her to drive all over town", "maybe the boys won't be interested in the girl that drives the dorky car"), but your plans may not line up with hers.

i-miev owner's are the most practical, rational people on the planet....They would have to be to drive THAT car! Kids.....not so much!

After all, weren't you a kid once? What kind of car did you want?
2012 Silver Mitsubishi iMiev ES with QC
2012 Raspberry Mitsubishi IMiev SE Premium with QC
2011 Viridian Joule Chevrolet Volt Premium
2002 Forest River Sunseeker 3100 LE
2001 Buick LeSabre custom
1997 Chrysler Town & Country LX

Blink 240V EVSE

DogMan12
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am
Location: Kooskooskie, WA

Re: Future battery replacement

Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:14 am

iwatson wrote:After all, weren't you a kid once? What kind of car did you want?


A Corvair. Well, a '65 turbo Corsa 4 speed, but a Corvair. Favorite as a young adult was a '47 International KB-2 pickup. (Tip-open windshield!)

No heirs here to give the MiEV to, just my own retirement to match the greying of the battery. Thanks, jray, for the list of current pack builders!
Dog Man Son
2012 iMiEV
We call it not Raspberry, but Metallic Malbec

jray3
Posts: 1329
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:31 pm

iwatson wrote:Jray3,
After all, weren't you a kid once? What kind of car did you want?


Ha-ha. Got a Karmann Ghia, just like I'd asked about at 4 years old, and still have Ghias!
Automotive monogamy ain't for everyone, but it's perceived to be a positive character trait by discerning women!
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 70,000 miles
i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

Benjamin Nead
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:21 am
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:22 pm

Hi all . . .

If all goes well, I will be the owner of a used ’12 ES in October. The current
lessee (friend and fellow member of the local EV club here in Tucson) is handing
it back to the dealer then following his 3 year rental commitment. I actually got
to borrow this very vehicle in the fall of 2013 for a couple of weeks and became
sold on owning an i-Miev then. The price is right for the purchase of a clean used
i-MiEVs these days (affordable to even poor ol’ me) and I know this one has been
well taken care of.

So, in anticipation of all this, I’ve been catching up with my reading here as of
late and came across this thread on replacement batteries. My guess is that I’m
not going to be a candidate for such a thing for many years to come, but the
technical aspects of what is possible along these lines in the future intrigues me.

First, present day wet blanket time . . .

I’m simply not seeing how thirty 18650 cylindrical cells can fit inside a box the
size of a LEV50 (171mm X 115mm X 44mm.) But I’m also assuming that the most
desirable thing would a physical drop-replacement for a LEV50 with the same 3.7V
and an increased amperage, so I’m starting with that criteria in mind (worrying later,
of course, on how the car’s computer might electronically hiccup with a battery
module output greater than 50Ah.)

Undaunted, I spent today moving appropriately-sized shapes around in Adobe
Illustrator to see what really is possible. The best I could come up that allowed for
logical cell placement, breathing space between the cells themselves and for everything
else you would want inside each of those 88 modules (BMS board, provisions for
robust mounting of the terminals on top, allowances for wall thickness of the box
itself, etc.) was sixteen 18650 cells.

The current Tesla cell is, I think, the Panasonic NCR18650B, with the proper
3.7V for series wiring (good news there) and rated at 3.4Ah (or 3400mAh) each . . .

https://www.fasttech.com/product/1141100-panasonic-ncr18650b-rechargeable-3400mah-3-7v

But sixteen of these in series would yield only 54.4Ah, which isn’t really enough
to make the venture worthwhile today. And, while I’m sure a more advantageous
pricing structure could occur when purchasing thousands in bulk instead of
a handful from a retailer like I’ve linked to, $3 per cell might always be wishful
thinking.

Now, for the potential future good news . . .

It’s been widely reported that the cell Telsa is destined to make in their upcoming
gigafactory is going to be physically larger: a 20700 (20mm diameter X 70mm
length) form factor . . .

http://gas2.org/2015/03/18/lighter-batteries-may-prove-tipping-point-electric-vehicles/

Assuming the chemistry is the same and allowing for a modest increase in
performance of the basic nickel/cobalt/aluminum oxide formula by production
time and in the years that immediately follow, it’s not unreasonable to assume
that this larger cell would be capable of an output between 4 to 5Ah. The physically
larger size of the cylinders is also good news in regards to fitting inside a LEV50-sized
box, as 20700s take up extra space in there over the 18650s quite nicely and it’s still
far from being cramped . . .

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i358/BeninTucson/LEV50_W.jpg

So, sixteen cells in the right sized box could yield between 64 to 80Ah per module.
16 X 88 modules = 1408 cells. That’s between 5232Ah (@ 4Ah per cell) and 7040Ah
(@5Ah per cell) for the whole pack. Multiply by 3.7V and that’s (respectively)
between about a 19.36kWh and 26kWh pack (someone please check my math!)

Assuming buying in lowish volume wholesale quantities is possible (by the
crateload, as opposed to by the shipping container-full,) around $5600 ($4 ea.)
to $7000 ($5 ea.) for all those cells to make what could be a 26kWh pack looks
pretty good . . . especially if a drop-in prismatic replacement for the LEV50
isn’t being made a few years from now.

We’ll also be waiting for news regarding things like lithium sulfur and (my favorite)
solid electrolyte technology to get here while all of the above is happening.
But that’s another battery dream post for another time.

Thoughts? . . .
Last edited by Benjamin Nead on Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Benjamin Nead / Tucson, Arizona, USA
Secretary: Tucson Electric Vehicle Association (EAA chapter)

North American 2012 i-MiEV SE / Pearl White /CHAdeMO
Aka: "The Vanilla Jellybean"
Purchased used in Nov. 2015 @ ~18,000 miles

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Future battery replacement

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:17 am

Benjamin Nead, welcome back after an absence of 3-1/2 years. :o

Two quick points:

1. Good luck in trying to obtain a particular lease return. Others have tried and failed. The buyback amounts were ridiculously high, which people with existing leases refused to pay. The returned cars get swallowed up and spit out at (unknown) auctions, only to be picked up by (mostly) clueless dealers for ridiculously low prices. If you are able to arrange this purchase ahead of time, please do let us know how you did it.

2. Regarding battery replacement, I posted this on one of the other threads: Until a hack is developed for the i-MiEV's battery management system and the ability to integrate it with, or spoof, the existing digital interface, I think we have a problem.

There are two reasons for wanting to pursue this digital hack:

a. Future battery replacement (the subject of this topic) with different chemistry and/or form factors (the subject of your post)
b. Increase the capacity of our existing pack.

We still have about five years of warranty left on our 2012 vehicles. A lot can happen between now and then.

Some of us have postulated that an add-on pack *should* work with no digital mods needed if inserted in the *right* place. Thus, adding a self-contained second pack with its own BMS and charging system may be preferable instead of shoehorning different cells into the existing box.

I submit that the focus of our present endeavours should be to figure out how the battery signals work so we can safely integrate with them.

Keep in mind, anything we do should not only preserve the safety features built into the vehicle, but also implement safety features which are at least as good into any mods we put in. :geek:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2413
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Future battery replacement

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:48 am

iwatson wrote:i-miev owner's are the most practical, rational people on the planet....They would have to be to drive THAT car! Kids.....not so much!

After all, weren't you a kid once? What kind of car did you want?
We were all kids once and I'm sure most of us did not get anything we wanted handed to us by our parents

I wanted a '57 Chevy and I got one . . . . at zero expense to my parents. The 'rule' was . . . . so long as you have the price of the car AND the first years insurance saved up, you can buy and drive anything you want

My daughter got our old VW Rabbit to drive her senior year in high school and our son 4 years later got an $800 Ford Escort - I'm sure neither of those were 'first choices' but if they had to live by the old 'rule' they both would have been walking for another year or two

In this day and age, *IF* I was buying the car, *AND* the insurance for it, *AND* the gas to move it, the car would be 95% what *I* chose and "Daddy buy me a Camaro" would fall on very deaf ears. My daughter wrecked the aforementioned VW Rabbit 3 different times (with ME making it roadworthy again the first two times) before we sent it to the junkyard and she began buying her own *choice* of vehicles

iwatson wrote:After all, weren't you a kid once? What kind of car did you want?
DogMan12 wrote:A Corvair. Well, a '65 turbo Corsa 4 speed, but a Corvair.
Ah, yes! That brings back memories. I had a '65 Corsa onvertible as my 3rd or 4th car, shortly after I joined the Air Force - I bought it as a basket case and put it together myself, down to the last nut and bearing in the engine. It was the fastest thing on 4 wheels down the North Bend AFS Oregon Radar Site road and the second fastest thing *UP* the road. I still had it later on here in Mississippi when I met my wife. We loved it! 30 years later, I bought a '66 Corsa convertible (better transmission than in the '65 model) and we restored that one and drove it in some antique car events. Both were the 4 X 1 bbl 140 HP models - Never cared much for the 180 HP turbo models . . . . the turbo lag in those cars was terrible, but once you got them up and going, they were rockets!

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1994 Miata 60K miles - Soon to be sold
1979 Honda CBX six into six

Phximiev
Posts: 1061
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:25 pm
Location: Phoenix

Re: Future battery replacement

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:03 am

Saw this optimistic report about triple the Yuasa battery in another iMiev forum post:

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/201 ... m-ion.html
2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

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