Battery replacement survey

[jumpjack]

It would be interesting to build a database-thread with these informations from various owners:

1. Did you replace the battery within warranty time?
2. Which variant of battery did you receive?
3. How many km did you drive at time of replacement?
4. How much would the replacement had costed out of warranty?
5. Where do you live?
6. how many km were you able to drive per charge at time of replacement?

Out-of-survey:
Is an iMiev battery suitable also for Czero and i0n without any change?

Answering is quick&simple, but details are appreciated! Example of quick reply:
n
don't know
70000km
7000$
London
65

Useful references:
Replacing an iMiev battery (thread)
Replacing LEV50 modules by 18650s (thread)
Official battery removal guide

LEV-50 module specs: (battery module used in iMiev battery)

• Nominal capacity / Ah: 50
• Nominal voltage / V: 3.7
• Stored energy / Wh: 185
• Dimension (H x W x L) / mm: 113.5 × 43.8 × 171 (0.85 L)
• Mass / kg: 1.7
• Specific energy / Wh kg-1: 109
• Energy density / Wh L-1: 218

Total battery capacity: 88x50x3.7 = 16 kWh = 125 km range (130 Wh/km)

There should be no problem to fit 24 or 6x2x2 18650 cells in LEV50 space (18650s would only be 108 x 36 x 130mm (0.50L) wrt 113.5 × 43.8 × 171 (0.85L) )

Current "state of the art" 18650 cells:

• Samsung INR18650-35E 3450mAh - 10A
• LG INR18650-MJ1 3500mAh - 10A
• Panasonic NCR18650B 3350mAh - 6.7A

"Modded" LEV50 module:

• Nominal capacity / Ah: 82
• Nominal voltage / V: 3.7
• Stored energy / Wh: 311 (+64%)
• Dimension (H x W x L) / mm: 113.5 × 43.8 × 171 (0.85 L) (108 x 36 x 130mm (0.50L))
• Mass / kg: 1.24
• Specific energy / Wh kg-1: 250
• Energy density / Wh L-1: 365

Total battery capacity: 88x311Wh = 27 kWh = 207 km range (130 Wh/km)

Expected life: 500 cycles / 103000 km
Current cost (march 2016): 11000 Euros
0,10 E/km

 

[FiddlerJohn]

Mitsubishi replaced my 3.5 year old 2012SE traction battery in September, 2015.

YES . . . . . . . . . . . . .1. Did you replace the battery within warranty time?
16kWh . . . . . . . . . . 2. Which variant of battery did you receive?
49,528 Miles. . . . . . 3. Which range did you have at time of replacement?
Don't Know. . . . . . . . 4. How much would the replacement had costed out of warranty?
Bowie, Maryland, USA 5. Where do you live?

Edit: Old Battery Range Remaining was usually RR=83, 104>RR<75 miles until a month before a single cell failure
.Now New Battery Range Remaining is usually RR=79, 89>RR<65
I seem to travel the same distances as before so the RR software may have changed. The Range Remaining gauge is one of the tools Mitsubishi did right. A GPS and the RR is all I need for good real time trip planning.

The day I drove to the dealership the full charge RR was 42 miles. After 5 miles the RR=20 mile. Arriving at the Dealer only 12 miles from home, my RR was ---. Zero.

 

[jumpjack]

Mitsubishi replaced my 3.5 year old 2012SE traction battery in September, 2015.

YES . . . . . . . . . . . . .1. Did you replace the battery within warranty time?
16kWh . . . . . . . . . . 2. Which variant of battery did you receive?
49,528 Miles. . . . . . 3. Which range did you have at time of replacement?
Don't Know. . . . . . . . 4. How much would the replacement had costed out of warranty?
Bowie, Maryland, USA 5. Where do you live?

Thanks... but I didn't ask my question (3) properly: I meant "how many km were you able to drive per charge at time of replacement?" Anyway also your answer is interesting, so I'll just add a question (6).

 

[JoeS]

jumpjack, thank you for making an attempt at compiling our battery replacement information. Will you be using a file accessible by our members?

Most of the information you're looking for is already available in this subforum. For example: AFAIK, there was only one battery so far that failed out of warranty, and the owner (developer of CaniOn) repaired it himself with parts from a used subpack:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2720

There had already been an attempt to compile battery failure data here, but not as a database:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2861

Your 'survey' questions leave me somewhat perplexed, as I fail to understand what the target motivation is for this survey and whether you are looking for European/Russian/Aussie or North American i-MiEV configurations (AFAIK, we have no active Japanese i-MiEV owners). It will be another five years before out-of-warranty North American i-MiEV battery pack replacement will become an issue, and who knows what options will be available then?

Regarding your questions:

1. At present, applies only to non-North American i-MiEVs

2. I believe that the packs get replaced with the same size that was in there originally, but perhaps some European owners might chime in on this one?

3. Meaningless number, as when a pack is failing it is invariably due to one or more cells going bad and the RR will be dramatically dropping with each recharge.

4. Replacement cost is largely unknown - ask your local dealer. In the above thread, me68 was quoted €18,000!

5. You're probably looking to simply identify the country or are you interested in the climate in which the car resides?

6. km or miles for your database?

Perhaps add car model, model year, and battery size?

I, for one, am always interested in knowing what the owner's climate and charging routine was prior to failure.

Anyway, before you put time into creating it may I suggest that you re-think your database objective and first peruse the threads on this subforum and put the data you find into your database (with holes) and then publish it so we can make applicable additions or corrections to it.

Most of us are notorious in not updating the existing user mileage database… hmm, can't even find it as it's not a sticky

Anyway, good luck.

 

[jumpjack]

jumpjack, thank you for making an attempt at compiling our battery replacement information. Will you be using a file accessible by our members?

Of course!

Most of the information you're looking for is already available in this subforum.

I guess yes.... but only each user knows where/when he wrote such data: a single person (me?) looking for all data around the forum would spend days/months, but each single user could spend 5 min in just copying his data here, and at same time he'll found here data from other users.

For example: AFAIK, there was only one battery so far that failed out of warranty

Maybe I misplaced the question: I'm not actually interested in failure, but just in "planned replacement". Especially on costs, which are quite absurd: I read they range from 5000 to 25000 euros!

Your 'survey' questions leave me somewhat perplexed, as I fail to understand what the target motivation is for this survey and whether you are looking for European/Russian/Aussie or North American i-MiEV configurations (AFAIK, we have no active Japanese i-MiEV owners). It will be another five years before out-of-warranty North American i-MiEV battery pack replacement will become an issue, and who knows what options will be available then?

The more data a database hold, the better it is!

Regarding your questions:
1. At present, applies only to non-North American i-MiEVs

Aren't iMiev/cZero/i0n sold since 2010? I assume also cZero/i0n owners come to this forum.

2. I believe that the packs get replaced with the same size that was in there originally, but perhaps some European owners might chime in on this one?

Pack was already updated once; battery technology evolves, so I expect further upgrades: I purchased an electric scooter in 2011; it had a 48Ah/60V/2880Wh battery which weighted 20 kg and was 16 dm3 large; it costed 2000 euros. Today, at same price and weight I could build a much better battery: 5 kWh in just 7 dm3! (using Panasonic NCR18650B or similar).

3. Meaningless number, as when a pack is failing it is invariably due to one or more cells going bad and the RR will be dramatically dropping with each recharge.

As said, I'm not looking for failures, just for replacement; so the meaning of the question is: which minimum range does an owner accept before replacement?

4. Replacement cost is largely unknown - ask your local dealer. In the above thread, me68 was quoted €18,000!

Most important datum of the database!

5. You're probably looking to simply identify the country or are you interested in the climate in which the car resides?

No, it's because it looks like each country has very different costs for replacement: 5000$ in Australia, 25000$ in Europe (????), you talk about 18000...

6. km or miles for your database?

No matter, I can do math.

Perhaps add car model, model year, and battery size?

I suggested minimal required data; any additional datum is welcome.

 

[JoeS]

Hi jumpinjack, I'm just trying to save you a lot of work, but do welcome your attempt. I own three 2012 i-MiEVs with 16K miles, 42K miles, and 36K miles (battery replaced at 28K miles described here). The range on all three is indistinguishable from one another.

Since you seem to be worried about future replacement cost of the battery due to it "wearing out", may I suggest that to be a non-issue unless you intend to be pushing the range limits for your daily commute. For almost all of our daily driving my wife and I only charge to 3/4 (12 bars) and rarely go below 3 bars and yet we each drive about 12,000 miles yearly in our i-MiEVs!

 

[jray3]

Thanks also from me to jumpjack- I mainly want to know about pack replacement costs. I'm at 53k miles with no apparent issues, but it would give great peace of mind as our warranty expirations approach for Mitsu to divulge pricing and terms for discretionary battery replacements. I've got enough hobby projects, and would prefer to buy a newly warranted pack than go DIY on my daily driver. Secondly, such a step by Mitsu could help to put a floor under the falling used car values, which have certainly been part of the impact on new i-MiEV sales.

I'd like to find an academic report on off-lease evs impacting new sales. I thought that the automakers were making a mistake with those loss-leader leases when it all started, but I'm mystified how they continue to finance the shell game of leasing a car for $199/mo and then taking a bath on the residual value. Surely their lease insurers put an end to that scam after the first couple of years?

 

[jumpjack]

Since you seem to be worried about future replacement cost of the battery due to it "wearing out", may I suggest that to be a non-issue unless you intend to be pushing the range limits for your daily commute

I do not own an iMiev. But I'm trying to figure out if purchasing a second-hand one with exhausted battery could be an option. Of course it would not if battery alone costs 25000$....

 

[PV1]

The cost to replace the battery, at least in the US, has been quoted between $12,000-$15,000. A better option (although risky in both physical nature and questionable results) is to re-pack a battery with new lithium cells. Several 18650 cells can be connected in parallel and arranged into blocks roughly the same size as the LEV50 cells. The unknown factor remains of whether or not the car will re-calculate ampacity and allow the newly expanded battery to be used fully. I guess now with EVBatMon, we can tell how often the car calculates ampacity. But, you'd prefer not to go DIY.

My second car, Koorz, definitely has some signs of capacity loss, and achieves 50-60 miles of charge vs. the 60-70 I see with Bear. To go about a warranty replacement, though, the battery must show some sign of failure and not simple capacity loss. This has historically been noted by the car refusing to charge to 16 bars, and Mitsubishi has been great at replacing failed packs.

I guess one way to roughly gauge a pack's health is to measure how far you can drive on a bar of charge. If the car is fully charged, and you drive sensibly on a level main road at speeds of 45-50 MPH, you should get just about 5 miles before losing the first bar. I've done up to 8.5 miles on the top bar with very efficient driving.

 

[jumpjack]

The cost to replace the battery, at least in the US, has been quoted between $12,000-$15,000. A better option (although risky in both physical nature and questionable results) is to re-pack a battery with new lithium cells. Several 18650 cells can be connected in parallel and arranged into blocks roughly the same size as the LEV50 cells.

Added some useful resources in first post.

The unknown factor remains of whether or not the car will re-calculate ampacity and allow the newly expanded battery to be used fully.

That's a big question!
A full re-packing would also require fully replacing Battery Management System... with unpredictable results on car electronics.

 

[JoeS]

I do not own an iMiev. But I'm trying to figure out if purchasing a second-hand one with exhausted battery could be an option. Of course it would not if battery alone costs 25000$....

jumpjack, the only forum participant who had a battery that he felt had significantly lost capacity is malm... Edit: I incorrectly said that Malm was getting a replacement pack.

jumpjack, have you seen any i-MiEVs with an 'exhausted battery' but otherwise in good condition? If you do find one, I bet you could pick it up for a bargain price, even if the current crop of used i-MiEVs don't meet your cost constraints.

For myself, I purchased an insurance policy in the form of a battery that just happens to have a lovely SE Premium wrapped around it. :roll:

 

[kiev]

Maybe better off to buy a new one at $22,900 then take the 7,500 tax credit=> $15,400 for brand new with 10 yr pack warranty.

or buy a used/off-lease for as cheap as possible and just drive the dog out of it and don't worry about the pack--it will always be cheaper to buy a newer used car than put new batteries in a 10-yr old car.

 

[Malm]

I do not own an iMiev. But I'm trying to figure out if purchasing a second-hand one with exhausted battery could be an option. Of course it would not if battery alone costs 25000$....

jumpjack, the only forum participant who had a battery that he felt had significantly lost capacity is malm... Edit: I incorrectly said that Malm was getting a replacement pack.

jumpjack, have you seen any i-MiEVs with an 'exhausted battery' but otherwise in good condition? If you do find one, I bet you could pick it up for a bargain price, even if the current crop of used i-MiEVs don't meet your cost constraints.

For myself, I purchased an insurance policy in the form of a battery that just happens to have a lovely SE Premium wrapped around it. :roll:

My battery now is at 33,7 Ah. I would like to remember all that one user from Las Vegas saw its range significantly reduced after two years, and received a new pack (that was not because a faulty cell, just battery degradation). That is described somewhere in this forum. I also would like to say that are some i-MiEVs from Australia that have now lower capacity then my car. My I-MiEV is not the worst case. We can see it easily in the database of the EvBatMon app, where my degradation curve appears over the media (astonishing, I was not expecting that, but surely the fact that there aren´t to many cars yet and some of them are Australian, took a roll in this).

A new battery was purchased from Mitsubishi, in Australia, for 5700 Aus dollars. In USA dollars that is 4390$ (and even less in euros). I think Mitsubishi would sell me a new one for 4000 € if I asked for one in two months, when my warranty will be over. But with 70% of capacity and 85% of the inicial range, I don´t need to replace it, because 350 days of an year I don´t do more then 30 miles.

 

[jumpjack]

jumpjack, have you seen any i-MiEVs with an 'exhausted battery' but otherwise in good condition? If you do find one, I bet you could pick it up for a bargain price, even if the current crop of used i-MiEVs don't meet your cost constraints.

As more time passes, more second-hand battery-exhautsed iMiev&clones will reach the market. (and also other EVs).
As an electric car can last 20 years without any motor degradation, while in 20 years battery technology will reach unthinkable targets, it's "compulsory" to think about how to "refill" these cars!

. I think Mitsubishi would sell me a new one for 4000 € if I asked for one in two months,

Could you please ask, for the records?

 

[JoeS]

As more time passes, more second-hand battery-exhautsed iMiev&clones will reach the market. (and also other EVs).
As an electric car can last 20 years without any motor degradation, while in 20 years battery technology will reach unthinkable targets, it's "compulsory" to think about how to "refill" these cars!...

I still haven't seen any "second-hand battery-exhausted iMiEVs and clones" on the market. Can't believe I'm saying this, but why fret over the future and sacrifice being able to drive an EV today? Buy what you can afford now and you'll have 5-20 years to devise a scheme to replace the batteries.

 

[Malm]

They will only tell a price when they have a real car with a problem to fix. And someone in Mitsubishi will make a price, someone inside Mitsubishi that have the possibility to decide what price to make. And probably they will stay with the old battery, after they replaced it, under this "special" price. I think there is no real price established, just a number that they will use to say that they are selling the battery with a big discount. They make the price case by case. But you should do all the recalls, one year checks and repairs with them to be easier to get the "special" offer. Just know the replacement on that Australian car, outside the warranty, and in euros that price is under 4500.

 

[jumpjack]

but why fret over the future and sacrifice being able to drive an EV today?

Because I'm already driving an E-Scooter!