jray3
Posts: 1648
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Location: Tacoma area, WA
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:20 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:If you use the heater and/or the defroster, then your range will be less than in warm weather. Sometimes a lot less using both the heater and the defroster can use as much energy as moving the car.


It's not just the increased load of cold weather operation. Like all batteries, lithium loses capacity in the cold, approaching 20% at 0 degrees Celsius. Here's a nice chart.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CFcQ9QEwBA

Keeping the pack warm will retain that capacity, regardless of whether you increase load by running the heater or defroster.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 105,400 miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
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tonymil
Posts: 274
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Location: Latham, NY

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:25 pm

This study looks at both, the effect of ambient temp and the use of the heater-a/c.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/58145.pdf

jray3
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:11 pm

tonymil wrote:This study looks at both, the effect of ambient temp and the use of the heater-a/c.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/58145.pdf


Thx- interesting takeaway is that the higher resistance encountered in cold-weather charging makes more amps go straight into heat than if the battery started out warm. So, there's another reason that cold charging takes longer- some of our charger output is just making heat internal to the cells, but it's sort of a positive feedback loop that will temper the effect of cold weather. I prefer to end a charge right as I begin a trip rather than hours before anyway, since the less time spent at high SOC, the better.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 105,400 miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

NeilBlanchard
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Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:55 pm

The battery is warmed up by charging it - and it warms as you using it, so, the ambient temperature is not the same as battery temperature. Also, the cold weather package has a battery heater included, so warming the battery will happen one way or another.

The heater and the defroster are by far the largest reasons that winter range is lower than summer range.
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

jray3
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Location: Tacoma area, WA
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:08 pm

But Neil, the OEM battery heater doesn't come on until negative 15C/5F, while the battery is happiest around 25C/77F.
In the NREL paper, it says that the battery lost over 50% of capacity at -20C. Imagine cutting our rated range to 31 miles, and then turn on the heater and watch RR drop to 21 miles or less.
If the battery was kept near 'room temperature' we wouldn't be adding load to a weakened battery. Folks using Canion this winter should be able to add a lot of clarity here.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 105,400 miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

michaelev
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:04 pm

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:11 pm

Heating pads: I agree it would be a chore to get them (and the insulation) installed but I've put them in other car applications before and it worked well. Pb Batts lose about 50% of their capacity in cold conditions so it was well worth the effort there:
http://the-redmenace.blogspot.com/2009/03/hot-batts.html
Michael

MLucas
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Location: Niagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:26 am

Instead of heating pads or other extreme measures to keep your battery pack warm, why not try charging the car before you need it? I've been following this practice since last year and have always had good results. I'm usually seeing only 1 or 2 extra bars used during winter mostly because of heater use. This year I have my MiEV-CAN working and can actually see the battery temperature, giving me proof that my charging method is keeping the batteries warm. This morning on the way to work I took this picture showing the outside temp at 4c/39F and my battery pack at 18c/64F. I have not started to put the car in the garage yet as I still need to clear out the summer items, once I do that I should see better results. This was the first time this season I heard and saw the low outside temp indicator. It's starting to get cold up here.

Image

Like Dylan...I went electric.

  • Purchased: June 29th, 2012
  • Mileage on June 29th, 2013 - 25,431 km / 15,802 miles
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fjpod
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:31 am
Location: NYC

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:40 am

good advice.

RobertC
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 am
Location: Winter Garden, FL

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:02 am

From the Mitsubishi Canada website.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.ca/en/i-miev/faq/

How far can I travel with the i-MiEV?
The i-MiEV can travel up to 155km at a single charge, based on EPA LA4 city mode.

Actual range varies with driving behavior, charging habits, use of air conditioning and heater, weather conditions, road conditions, use of regenerative braking system, drive mode etc. The following are some sample of driving conditions that you may encounter in real world driving.

* The figures are a range estimation to be expected in each driving condition with a new condition battery. MMSCAN cannot guarantee the range to be achieved. Actual range will vary depending upon driving/charging habits, speed, conditions, weather, temperature and battery age.

Ideal driving conditions:
Approx. 160 km(100 miles)
Speed: Average 60 km/h (38 mph)
Temperature: 25ºC
Climate control: Off

City driving on a nice day:
Approx. 120 km(75 miles)*
Speed: Average 24 km/h (15 mph)
Temperature: 25ºC
Climate control: Off

Highway driving in the summer:
Approx. 104 km(65 miles)
Speed: Average 80 km/h (50 mph)
Temperature: 35ºC
Climate control: COOL On

Local commute on a hot day:
Approx. 80 km(50 miles)
Speed: Average 24 km/h (15 mph)
Temperature: 35ºC
Climate control: MAX COOL On

Winter, traffic jam:
Approx. 48 km(30miles)
Speed: Average 16 km/h (10 mph)
Temperature: 0ºC
Climate control: HEATER On


Sounds about right to me.
You can go 100 miles at 38mph with no climate control.
You can go 50 to 65 miles with the air conditioning running.
You can only go 30 miles if you are stuck in a winter traffic jam (unless you turn the heat off!).

They don't have any scenarios that show the loss in range from going 70mph.
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RobbW
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Elgin, IL

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:18 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:If you use the heater and/or the defroster, then your range will be less than in warm weather. Sometimes a lot less using both the heater and the defroster can use as much energy as moving the car.

When you say "defroster", are you referring to the "Defrost" setting on the climate control or the rear-window defroster? I also have a question about the climate control defroster setting specifically. I usually keep my setting on the Feet/Defrost position to help keep the windows clear and my footsies from freezing. However, I notice that when I change from the feet/defrost position to only the defrost position, my RR immediately drops an additional 5 miles. Is there something different about using the defrost-only position that would eat up more of my range?

Now that it is getting colder where I live, I have been noticing a decline in RR every morning when I unplug and head to work. When I bought my Meepster in July and for the rest of the summer, I was normally seeing an RR between 75-80 miles first thing in the morning after charging overnight. Now, with overnight and morning temps in the 30s and low 40s, my average starting RR is around 65 miles. And this is with my i-MiEV being garaged. With the climate control in the feet/defrost position, the fan on auto, and the heat set to two clicks above the green dot, my RR will usually drop from the mid-60s to the low 50s immediately. Still plenty for my 30-mile round trip commute and a little errand running. However, I'm starting to get concerns about my effective range in the dead of winter. One of these days, I plan to do a live run-through of worst-case scenario to see how my i-MiEV performs. I plan to drive my entire round-trip commute with the heat fully blasted just to see what my effective range is so that I can plan for the dead of winter accordingly.
Clear Skies,
Robb

EV: 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV SE, Raspberry Metallic, Premium Package - Purchased 07/11/13
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