JoeS
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Posts: 3456
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Wed May 23, 2018 10:34 am

This week my wife took the Tesla again up to Oregon and I unexpectedly had a series of longer local trips which necessitated multiple DCQC charges. I had made the mistake of leaving my wife's i-MiEV at five bars with it's 12v on a float charger, making it essentially unusable. I now leave my wife's i-MiEV at 9 bars just in case I need to use it.

At home with our summer peak TOU rate structure, if I had to pay for it, charging during the day runs 45.7¢/kWh. In my case, this would mean less income to me because, as a result of generation supplier changes, I now actually get paid for the electricity I generate with my solar system. Thus, I try to refrain from charging during the day so when I get home with, say, four bars. I'm content to let the car sit there until nighttime. This week it bit me, as I had a few unexpected serious trips which had me, for example, rack up over 150 miles yesterday on my i-MiEV.

With EVgo's lowered rates and ChargePoint's normally very-reasonable rates, it was actually cheaper for me to use their DCQC instead of charging at home. In my case, I was running all over the place and NEEDED the DCQC with my tight time schedules. Luckily, every local DCQC station I went to was available and working and not ICEd!

This is a change from my past perspective whereby I had poo-poo'd the need for local DCQC. Now, I concede that it is battery-size-dependent, with the smaller the battery the greater the need.

So, I've updated the list of Public Charging Station Customers with a charging speed (level) annotation.

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home. (DCQC preferred)
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town. (L2 OK)
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting. (DCQC preferred)
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge. (DCQC preferred, but L2 usually OK)
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.(L1 and L2 OK)
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home. (DCQC preferred)
7. A local (typically multi-unit-dwelling) resident NEEDING to charge as having no option of charging at home. (L1 and L2 OK)

Recently there have been a lot of clueless newbies at both J1772 EVSEs and Tesla Superchargers that I've helped out numerous times, and it was a surprise to every one of them when I said that these were NOT parking spots and they DID NOT need to fully charge the cars and that the expectation was that they would move their cars as soon as they had enough charge to get home. In fact, all the local newbies I talked with were doing it because they COULD and not because they HAD TO. There's a cultural education that needs to be taking place...

Funniest one was the lady with her new Tesla Model 3 who had pulled into a ChargePoint CHAdeMO/Combo station and was trying to figure out how to plug it into her car. This was the last station available so I explained why it wouldn't work but directed her to the J1772 station nearby (I quickly pulled in and plugged in my i-MiEV into CHAdeMO after she pulled out) and then showed her how to use the J1772 adapter that came with the car and which would work IF she had a ChargePoint card (showed her). Maybe I should hire myself out to Tesla to teach people how to use their cars... :roll:

Anyway, fun and games in Silicon Valley where thankfully we now have loads of charging stations.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

jray3
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Wed May 23, 2018 2:08 pm

Fun times, Joe, but I'll suggest an amendment to your below list as follows.
#5, EV commuters have trouble using L1 or L2 if it isn't within easy walking distance, so may need DCFC.
#7, same for apartment dwellers, plus the insecurity of offsite parking at night, even if within walking distance. They need DCFC.

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home. (DCQC preferred)
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town. (L2 OK)
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting. (DCQC preferred)
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge. (DCQC preferred, but L2 usually OK)
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.(L1 and L2 OK)
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home. (DCQC preferred)
7. A local (typically multi-unit-dwelling) resident NEEDING to charge as having no option of charging at home. (L1 and L2 OK)
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 87,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2648
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Wed May 23, 2018 2:27 pm

JoeS wrote:Recently there have been a lot of clueless newbies at both J1772 EVSEs and Tesla Superchargers that I've helped out numerous times, and it was a surprise to every one of them when I said that these were NOT parking spots and they DID NOT need to fully charge the cars and that the expectation was that they would move their cars as soon as they had enough charge to get home. In fact, all the local newbies I talked with were doing it because they COULD and not because they HAD TO. There's a cultural education that needs to be taking place...
Volt owners never cease to complain whenever the cost of charging is more than the cost of gasoline - They call it price gouging

I explained that BEV drivers get furious when they are 'ICE'd' by hybrid drivers who are taking up a charger they NEED, just so hybrid owners can save a bit of gas - Especially when they don't move their cars once they have what they need to get where they're going. Pricing will eventually resolve these problems because so long as charging costs more than gas, it will help keep charging stations open for those who actually NEED to charge, as opposed to hybrid owners who can get home regardless of whether they can charge or not

Too many people feel that just because they drive cars which use electricity, charging should be free . . . . after all, they're doing the planet such a great service by not burning gasoline, so they feel somebody else should be picking up the tab

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

ChrisEV
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm
Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Wed May 23, 2018 5:20 pm

When charging is free people “top up” just because they can.

I think L2 charging should be inexpensive. It’s a convenience when you’re shopping for example. I think someday they will have a system where if you spend $10 or more at an establishment they can validate 1-2 hours of charging or something.

We have L2 chargers here that charge a $1.50 “session fee” followed by $3/hour which is ridiculous. Not surprisingly no one uses them.

As for PHEV vs BEV if they’re not using their engine they’re helping saving the planet too.

The solution is more chargers.
2012 i-MIEV SE Premium

TobyGadd
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:53 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Wed May 23, 2018 5:28 pm

ChrisEV wrote:As for PHEV vs BEV if they’re not using their engine they’re helping saving the planet too.
The solution is more chargers.


This ^
2016 iMiev ES, Blue

jray3
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Thu May 24, 2018 10:49 am

I agree that public L2 should be inexpensive. Less than gas, but not free. At $2.50/gallon, a fleet average approaching 25 mpg and 250 Wh/mile, my rule of thumb is a breakeven point of $0.10/mile or $0.40/kWh. That's a 400% markup on electricity from Puget Sound Energy, and coincides nicely with the Blink Network pricing of $0.39/kWh. Even at 400% markup, it's hard to cover any networking and maintenance costs for public L2 charging. I've been willing to 'overpay' for public charging as an early adopter, and it still pencils out because the majority of my miles come from super-cheap recharging at home (arguably profitable at home, given Washington's solar incentives). Sure, you can cut that breakeven point to $0.05/mile for a Prius or PHEV, but very few folks get to decide each morning whether to drive the Prius or the I-MiEV....

When public charging costs more than gas, at least in comparison to a 1-2 year average gas price, that opens up EV'ing to attacks via economics and delays the transition to sustainable transportation.

I am concerned that with long-range EVs dominating the market and no short-range EVs still for sale other than PHEVs, the current round of VW-funded non-highway EVSE deployments could fail due to lack of use. When one is driving a Bolt or Model 3, the only reason to plug in during normal daily use would be to score a preferable parking place.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 87,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3456
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Thu May 24, 2018 11:55 am

jray3 wrote:Fun times, Joe, but I'll suggest an amendment to your below list as follows.
#5, EV commuters have trouble using L1 or L2 if it isn't within easy walking distance, so may need DCFC.
#7, same for apartment dwellers, plus the insecurity of offsite parking at night, even if within walking distance. They need DCFC.
1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home. (DCQC preferred)
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town. (L2 OK)
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting. (DCQC preferred)
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge. (DCQC preferred, but L2 usually OK)
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.(L1 and L2 OK)
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home. (DCQC preferred)
7. A local (typically multi-unit-dwelling) resident NEEDING to charge as having no option of charging at home. (L1 and L2 OK)
jray3, you do realize that what you just suggested ends up recommending that virtually all public charging situations should be DCFC?
jray3 wrote:I am concerned that with long-range EVs dominating the market and no short-range EVs still for sale other than PHEVs, the current round of VW-funded non-highway EVSE deployments could fail due to lack of use. When one is driving a Bolt or Model 3, the only reason to plug in during normal daily use would be to score a preferable parking place.
Yes, I've been bemused by the continued proliferation of J1772 charging stations. Case in point, earlier this week I was running all over the place with unanticipated/unscheduled and very time-constrained trips and had no use for J1772.

So, what we're evolving to is is that J1772 charging stations will primarily cater to PHEVs in the near-future, but perhaps they are also doomed - case in point, the two local Volt owners that I know will be buying BEVs next since they've proven to themselves that even a 35-mile (now 50-mile) Volt electric range works for them and neither takes long trips. Hey, for us i-MiEV owners, the Bolt's 238-mile range is unabashed luxury!

PV1 - you own a BoltEV. How often and in what circumstances do you utilize a public charging?

Let me perhaps share yet another perspective: during our two meandering cross-country Tesla trips I often relied on local J1772 and CHAdeMO charging stations which allowed us to visit many out-of-the-way locations and not be fixated on our route being forced by the Tesla SuperCharger locations. Love PlugShare.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

bradleydavidgood777
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am
Location: Media, PA

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Thu May 24, 2018 12:23 pm

I don't have any problem with the cost of public charging stations at all. They have to make their money and when I need it, it's well worth it to me. Fast charge at $10 is totally cool with me. I probably only will need it once a year. I would rather have the current costs and more locations than cheaper cost and less locations. That's how I look at it. Higher cost allows quicker expansion, as long as the CEOs don't pocket it, which is often the case.
2017 I-Miev

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2648
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Thu May 24, 2018 2:04 pm

jray3 wrote:I agree that public L2 should be inexpensive. Less than gas, but not free. At $2.50/gallon, a fleet average approaching 25 mpg and 250 Wh/mile, my rule of thumb is a breakeven point of $0.10/mile or $0.40/kWh. That's a 400% markup on electricity from Puget Sound Energy
Won't work everywhere. Joe said the daytime rate at his house is 45 cents IIRC. Hard for the owner of the charging stations to make any money for less than about 75 cents

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

jray3
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Public Charging Station Customers

Thu May 24, 2018 4:03 pm

Don wrote:Won't work everywhere. Joe said the daytime rate at his house is 45 cents IIRC. Hard for the owner of the charging stations to make any money for less than about 75 cents
Don


Yep, that's one more downside to TOU pricing and another push towards big-battery EVs. Gas pricing doesn't quadruple during the course of EVery afternoon! Locally we don't have time of use pricing and won't anytime soon, but demand charges (per kW in addition to per kWh) are a big deal, so I made sure to install our EVSE on small facilities that aren't subject to demand charges. During winter at $12.81 per peak kW, an I-MiEV plugging in for the right 15 minutes would cost the host $42.27, and a 20 kW dual-charger TESLA could cost $256.20. That's right, for 15 minutes or EVen less of charging if it coincides with peak demand at the host facility.

Adding 50 kW CHAdeMO would almost assuredly cost my local High School $640.50 per month in demand charges! California demand charges are up to twice that...
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 87,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

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