etrac
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Turtle when Braking

Tue May 19, 2020 1:26 pm

Hello everybody

I am new here. A little introduction of myself: I come from Europe and I am struggling with a problem of my Peugeot Ion, which i have not been able to solve in another forum. So I am posting here in hope for any hint.

My Ion is a 88 cells vehicle of 2011. So I guess quite similar to the iMiev.

I got the vehicle last fall after the previous owner had a little accident and broke the front bumper and the windshield. Because the battery has already been down on about 30Ah he did not want to spend any money in the car anymore. So I fixed the outside and hoped for a nice little commuter car at no running costs.

But there is an issue with car's electric.

Every time I brake at creep-speed with the brake-pedal, the displays shows an exclamation-mark and the car goes into turtle-mode. If I brake fast, the car stops and I keep staying on the brake, this happens as well.
If I drive creep-speed , change from drive to neutral and I brake then, this does not happen! After I change, while the car has stopped, from neutral to the forward or backward gear again (still on the brake pedal) then the exclamation-mark shows up again.

Additional to the exclamation mark on the display the battery light goes on when I push the lever then from Forward or Backward to Park.
When I then switch off the car and on again the lights are off. Everything looks ok.

I can drive the car like this, but for every stop light I have to change to neutral for braking and change to forward when the light goes green. As my daughter will possibly use the car for learning to drive I can't let her a car like this.

I nearly forgot to mention that the 12V battery is already changed against a new one. Thanks for any help.

Marius

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3934
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: turtle when braking

Wed May 20, 2020 7:49 am

Marius (etrac), welcome to the forum. Sorry it's not under better circumstances.

Commiserate with your issues, but have no solutions for you. A few questions, if I may -

1. Have you been able to record any error codes using the OBDII port?
2. Do the issues you describe occur at all states of charge?

Probably unrelated, but -

3. Does the car charge normally?
4. How well balanced are the cells across the full range of SoC?

Simply musing, IIRC, before the i-MiEV was released to the US, Mitsubishi did a lot of work improving the blending of regeneration with the brake system (the end result being excellent, IMO). Poking around I seem to recall two separate brake pedal sensors... also, there is brake application rate detection s.t. if we slam on the brakes it seriously kicks in the brake assist. none of which explains turtle and the exclamation point.

Hopefully someone here can contribute.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

etrac
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Re: Turtle when Braking

Fri May 22, 2020 12:36 am

Hi JoeS

Thank you for your answer.

I only can deliver an answer at the moment to
1. Have you been able to record any error codes using the OBDII port?

Yes there are errors, but I cannot tell if they where before or they are related to the problem. I have to find out how tho delete the errors before checking.

Following errors occured:
EV_ECU:
P1A44 (temporary)
P0513 (maybe temporary, no text on the scanner)
P1A2F (maybe temporary, no text on the scanner)

OBC:
39 (?)

About braking and regen, good idea!
I also think that has to be considered.
When I brake with no regen (Mode Neutral) -> no issue
When I brake with regen (Mode Forward or Backward) -> issue
So there must be a difference with sensor signals or what signals are used in what modes etc.

Actually I took out the Service-Disconnect to get rid of the heater and the AC, because I read a lot of trouble related to them. But the connectors seem to be accessed from below. I even don't know if it is ok to only unplug their high voltage connectors. Maybe I just generate more errors.

kiev
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 7:15 am
Location: The Heart o' Dixie
Contact: Website

Re: Turtle when Braking

Fri May 22, 2020 4:34 am

DTC Codes:

EV_ECU:
P1A44 BMU detected electric leakage (Ground Fault Current Detector in Pack?)
P0513 Incorrect Immobilizer Key (maybe battery in key is low?)
P1A2F BMU detected a Cell Error (need to read the BMU DTC for details)

OBC:
39 Abnormal output voltage in the Power Factor Correction (PFC) circuit
How are you able to charge the car, Level (1 or 2 EVSSE), or DCQC Level 3?

When I brake with no regen (Mode Neutral) -> no issue
When I brake with regen (Mode Forward or Backward) -> issue
The Regen is trying to charge the Pack, so the electrical leakage or bad cell will be affected by this.

Actually I took out the Service-Disconnect to get rid of the heater and the AC, because I read a lot of trouble related to them. But the connectors seem to be accessed from below. I even don't know if it is ok to only unplug their high voltage connectors.
Shouldn't be a problem if the ends are sufficiently insulated from the chassis and each other to reduce High Voltage leakage currents.
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

etrac
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Re: Turtle when Braking

Fri May 22, 2020 1:07 pm

Thank you kiev for your answers.

Today I had plenty of time to play with the OBDII device.
So I put the service-disconnect back to place.

EV_ECU:
only the P1A44 in the EV-ECU comes again.
All the other errors of the EV-ECU seemed to be old. I could clear them and they did not came back.
Actually I am at 67% SoC

I then concentrated on the P1A44. I cleared it and produced it again. Then I read out the fault code and the image of the EV-ECU values during the error (I think it is an image of the values when the error occurs, please correct if I am wrong).

Nearly all of the values were reasonable, but 2 of them were odd.
The Motor speed was reported with 9000 rpm and the speed with 153km/h. I was surprised that this car can ever go so fast :-)

OBC:
I was not able to clear this fault 39
I have not tried yet to charge the car again, because the plug in my garage is too weak and I have no access to the fuse.
I normally charge with that brick piece which came with the car.
I am going to try to charge again at another plug.

Regen:
Yes, your are right. That is a logic explanation. So it should happen during regen while driving as well, correct? Or do I missunderstand?

Heater + AC:
As I got no faults from these devices and the P1A44 is coming out of the battery, I kept the devices plugged.

So for tomorrow I am going to give a charge to the car.

kiev wrote:DTC Codes:

EV_ECU:
P1A44 BMU detected electric leakage (Ground Fault Current Detector in Pack?)
P0513 Incorrect Immobilizer Key (maybe battery in key is low?)
P1A2F BMU detected a Cell Error (need to read the BMU DTC for details)

OBC:
39 Abnormal output voltage in the Power Factor Correction (PFC) circuit
How are you able to charge the car, Level (1 or 2 EVSSE), or DCQC Level 3?

When I brake with no regen (Mode Neutral) -> no issue
When I brake with regen (Mode Forward or Backward) -> issue
The Regen is trying to charge the Pack, so the electrical leakage or bad cell will be affected by this.

Actually I took out the Service-Disconnect to get rid of the heater and the AC, because I read a lot of trouble related to them. But the connectors seem to be accessed from below. I even don't know if it is ok to only unplug their high voltage connectors.
Shouldn't be a problem if the ends are sufficiently insulated from the chassis and each other to reduce High Voltage leakage currents.

kiev
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 7:15 am
Location: The Heart o' Dixie
Contact: Website

Re: Turtle when Braking

Fri May 22, 2020 1:33 pm

With OBC code 39, the car is not likely to charge. You should remove the cover on the OBC and inspect for capacitor damage; see the OBC troubleshooting thread for pictures and a few details on what is inside that box.

The P1A44 code does not sound good either. Are all the cells reading about the same voltage (using the OBDII reader device?)
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

etrac
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Re: Turtle when Braking

Sat May 23, 2020 1:27 am

kiev wrote:The P1A44 code does not sound good either. Are all the cells reading about the same voltage (using the OBDII reader device?)


The OBDII device said
lowest cell voltage 3.97V
highest cell voltage 3.99V

kiev
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 7:15 am
Location: The Heart o' Dixie
Contact: Website

Re: Turtle when Braking

Sat May 23, 2020 5:07 am

That is only 20 mV difference, which is not bad for an older pack. Did it chargge and does it still do the Turtle?
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

etrac
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Re: Turtle when Braking

Sat May 23, 2020 5:33 am

It charged.
I just tried with the OBDII device connected.
I saw the SoC% going up, the cell voltages going over 4.00V and a constant input current of 4 Amps (DC or AC i don't know).

So it seems to charge even with the OBD error 39, which I was not able to delete.

etrac
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Re: Turtle when Braking

Sat May 23, 2020 6:39 am

I think I did a wrong interpretation.
I will disconnect the AC and heater anyway. As far as I understand there is only one central isolation test device (leakage sensor). So it detects the battery and all connected components. Is this interpretation correct?

In fact I should disconnect all the devices one after the other to see if this iso fault is gone. But I think the fuses and connectors access is from underneath the car.

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