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ed5000

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
258
Location
Castro Valley, CA
I have a new 5.5KW solar system on my roof and I just got PTO (permission to operate) last Friday. I figured this was a must have accessory to go with my I-meiv.

Installation went pretty smoothly, even with a two week delay from PG&E due to the wildfires in Paradise which was understandable. In fact, PG&E was very easy to work with. The only thing I had to do was relocate a rain downspout that was right over the new inverter mounted on the wall.

Now I have to look into which service plans are available to me.
 
ed5000, congratulations! Most people I know had to wait far longer for PG&E to come out and install their new meter, all the while the old meter was not recording any benefit from the active solar for the owner.

Good luck on figuring out an advantageous rate structure -

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml

Need to study your existing consumption, factor in projections with your new solar system, and do the math to choose the least of the evils offered. Since you'll be Time Of Use (TOU) a lot depends on your particular daily schedule.

Here's their blurb on EV rates:
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti...cle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page

I have E-6, but it's not offered any more. My daytime peak rate is 45.7¢/kWh and my lowest rate is 17.9¢/kWh ... thank goodness, with my amortized 11kW solar I don't pay anything! They're wising up, reacting to the duck curve, and we'll all be screwed as they revise the rates...

Did you figure in electric cars as part of your amortization calculation? How many years? My own predicted was 17 years but in actuality it broke even in seven.

It'll be interesting what happens if PG&E is found liable if their downed power lines started all those fires...
 
Gosh, all this whinging by Californians has me wondering if it's time to return to Guerilla Solar! :p
https://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/the-guerrilla-solar-movement-zmaz01zsel
https://www.guerrillasolar.tk/

Modern solar modules with microinverters are perfectly safe and easy to install, but the hurdles of permitting, interconnection agreements, and installing a production meter prevent most small scale solar from happening.....
I'd seriously posit that a 120 VAC microinverter outputting through an extension cord into a normal 120V outlet poses far less hazard than any number of UL-listed appliances, and by design, cannot backfeed the grid during a power failure.

Here's an example that anyone could deploy, apparently even includes the connector formerly known as a "suicide plug".
https://www.amazon.com/NEP-Grid-tie...icroInverter/dp/B07B4L3F42?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1
 
jray3 said:
Gosh, all this whinging by Californians has me wondering if it's time to return to Guerilla Solar!
Hmm, didn't know they had a name for it. :roll:

Whinging - I thought they only called it that in Australia.

BTW, my community has waived all permitting fees for solar installs.
 
jray3 said:
Modern solar modules with microinverters are perfectly safe and easy to install, but the hurdles of permitting, interconnection agreements, and installing a production meter prevent most small scale solar from happening.....
I'd seriously posit that a 120 VAC microinverter outputting through an extension cord into a normal 120V outlet poses far less hazard than any number of UL-listed appliances, and by design, cannot backfeed the grid during a power failure.

I agree. I always thought these microinverters and panels should be sitting on a shelf at Lowes or HD with dryer plugs ready to plug in :cool: .
 
JoeS said:
ed5000, congratulations! Most people I know had to wait far longer for PG&E to come out and install their new meter, all the while the old meter was not recording any benefit from the active solar for the owner.

Good luck on figuring out an advantageous rate structure -
All together it took about 2-1/2 months. The system was operable after a month and sat for 1-1/2 months. Not bad considering the wildfires and all.

Thanks for the links. I have a little homework to do...
 
Congrats on the install.

47 cents/kWh is insane. No wonder Apple went all out on solar on their spaceship. Payback must be months instead of years.

One way around all the hassles of dealing with the utility would be to put battery-based solar in with the grid set up as a "backup generator". This would work great in less seasonal areas, as the house primarily runs on battery power (charged via solar) and only uses the grid when the batteries are low.
 
PV1 said:
Congrats on the install.

47 cents/kWh is insane. No wonder Apple went all out on solar on their spaceship. Payback must be months instead of years.

One way around all the hassles of dealing with the utility would be to put battery-based solar in with the grid set up as a "backup generator". This would work great in less seasonal areas, as the house primarily runs on battery power (charged via solar) and only uses the grid when the batteries are low.
Thanks! With the ever increasing rates it kind of makes it a no brainer. With my I-miev my best guess is a payback of 5 years if nothing else changes.

Right now we're switching over to dual energy providers. The new one is East Bay Community Energy which will actually provide the power and the current, PG&E, which will provide transmission (which they're having trouble with due to wildfires) :? and billing (which they're good at). :lol:

Either way I figure I can't lose. :mrgreen:
 
Calculate out your electric bill for 25 years, then compare that to the cost of a solar install sized to meet 100% of your consumption. With solar, you're basically pre-paying for power, and often it ends up being cheaper over the warranty period of the solar panels.
 
greenteam84 said:
I want to try solar power but I find it expensive
Around here it's expensive with or without solar. I just got my second full month energy bill since installing solar. It was $180 with $150 of it being the cost of natural gas. So about $30 was an electric connection fee and taxes. I usually pay between $220 to $240 in the wintertime so right away, I'm seeing a savings of $40 to $60 per month.

Since I financed my system I have a payment of about $100 per month, so it looks like I might be loosing $40 to $60 per month except for the fact that the fuel for my I-meiv is in there somewhere. I figure this cost to be about $30 per month.

My latest improvement is that I installed an electric water heater this weekend replacing the gas one. This will save $30 to $40 per month in gas charges. The only thing I need to watch for is that I don't draw more electric power than I produce on the roof during the year.

As we move into Spring and Summer, my electric production should go up and my natural gas usage will go down and that should save me more! :mrgreen:
 
I installed a 4 by 10 foot (AE40) solar water heating panel on my roof 12 years ago with two 55 gallon storage tanks in the basement. Total coast was about $3K but I got half that back when I filed my taxes. It has paid for itself many times over and I figure the electricity it saves me is about the same amount I use charging my EV's. So, even though I don't have solar electricity, I'm still driving pretty much free!

Switching from gas to electric for heating water might just be a losing proposition - Same for gas or electric clothes dryers. Unless your electric rate is very low, gas is probably cheaper. If you use more solar than you're generating, your new water heater may be part of the problem

Don
 
Don said:
I installed a 4 by 10 foot (AE40) solar water heating panel on my roof 12 years ago with two 55 gallon storage tanks in the basement. Total coast was about $3K but I got half that back when I filed my taxes. It has paid for itself many times over and I figure the electricity it saves me is about the same amount I use charging my EV's. So, even though I don't have solar electricity, I'm still driving pretty much free!

Switching from gas to electric for heating water might just be a losing proposition - Same for gas or electric clothes dryers. Unless your electric rate is very low, gas is probably cheaper. If you use more solar than you're generating, your new water heater may be part of the problem

Don
I'll have to look into solar water heating. It would go really well with a solar electric system.

I hated to go from gas heating to electric but with electric power that's sort of free, it was too tempting. Plus my gas heater is still hooked up and ready to go. I just have to change some valves and light the burner. This way I'm ready for whatever they throw at me. :lol:
 
JoeS said:
ed5000, does your water heater have a heat pump? I have a GE GeoSpring, but it had issues and I've modified it for TOU.
Sorry Joe, I should have elaborated a little more on this.

I have a tankless 27 kw electric water heater. So no heat pumps on these (that I'm aware of).

The way my house is set up is all our bathrooms and even the kitchen is on the right half of the house. The gas water heater was on the far left, actually beyond the left in our garage which is the left most part of the house. All the water lines run from left to right. So taking a shower or drawing hot water in the kitchen took a really long time and used lots of water. Now less than 30 seconds brings us hot water in the bathrooms or kitchen. So that should cut our water usage and cut our energy cost heating all that unused water. Plus, I've insulated most of the hot water lines which were all uninsulated before.
 
ed5000, your tankless water heater is drawing 112.5 amps at 240vac?? :eek: Wow! Makes our car charging currents seem puny. Just how big is the circuit breaker for this thing?

Good that you relocated the water heater location. When I designed my house, I located my (electric) water heater centrally with respect to the already-grouped plumbing, with very short runs to all the bathrooms and kitchen.

Insulation really helps. After installing my new water heater and insulating the input/output pipes, there is virtually no warmth emanating from that thing and it holds hot water for the entire day as I cut off its power input as soon as TOU partial-peak begins in the late morning, and only turn power back on in the evening. Simply don't do laundry during the day, that's all, especially now that summer rates are about the kick in.

With respect to tankless vs. tank vs. tank+ heatpump, that's a separate discussion...
 
JoeS said:
ed5000, your tankless water heater is drawing 112.5 amps at 240vac??

. . . . and no matter when it runs, day or night, it will be using juice from the grid because your solar can't supply that kind of power, can it?

A standard 55 gallon electric heater with a 4 Kw lower element wired to run on 120 volts instead of the 240 it's rated for (only draws 1kw on 120 and will last forever) set on a time clock to only run when the sun is up would be a good option for anyone with solar who doesn't have natural gas. That would ensure you seldom use grid power for heating water . . . .

Don
 
JoeS said:
ed5000, your tankless water heater is drawing 112.5 amps at 240vac?? :eek: Wow! Makes our car charging currents seem puny. Just how big is the circuit breaker for this thing?

Good that you relocated the water heater location. When I designed my house, I located my (electric) water heater centrally with respect to the already-grouped plumbing, with very short runs to all the bathrooms and kitchen.

Insulation really helps. After installing my new water heater and insulating the input/output pipes, there is virtually no warmth emanating from that thing and it holds hot water for the entire day as I cut off its power input as soon as TOU partial-peak begins in the late morning, and only turn power back on in the evening. Simply don't do laundry during the day, that's all, especially now that summer rates are about the kick in.

With respect to tankless vs. tank vs. tank+ heatpump, that's a separate discussion...
It does have three 40 amp two pole breakers and I have a 200 amp service for the house. I’ve been trying to keep an eye on it. The specs claim it can handle up to 3 showers at once and we only use one at a time so our power draw is lower. The highest I’ve seen close to 70 amps.

I like your idea of a heat pump water heater especially on a time schedule and Don’s idea
of an 120 volt element is great too. I’ll keep them in mind if the tankless doesn’t work out.
 
ed5000 said:
JoeS said:
ed5000, your tankless water heater is drawing 112.5 amps at 240vac?? :eek: Wow! Makes our car charging currents seem puny. Just how big is the circuit breaker for this thing?

Good that you relocated the water heater location. When I designed my house, I located my (electric) water heater centrally with respect to the already-grouped plumbing, with very short runs to all the bathrooms and kitchen.

Insulation really helps. After installing my new water heater and insulating the input/output pipes, there is virtually no warmth emanating from that thing and it holds hot water for the entire day as I cut off its power input as soon as TOU partial-peak begins in the late morning, and only turn power back on in the evening. Simply don't do laundry during the day, that's all, especially now that summer rates are about the kick in.

With respect to tankless vs. tank vs. tank+ heatpump, that's a separate discussion...
It does have three 40 amp two pole breakers and I have a 200 amp service for the house. I’ve been trying to keep an eye on it. The specs claim it can handle up to 3 showers at once and we only use one at a time so our power draw is lower. The highest I’ve seen close to 70 amps.

I like your idea of a heat pump water heater especially on a time schedule and Don’s idea
of an 120 volt element is great too. I’ll keep them in mind if the tankless doesn’t work out.

Well, I made some improvements. I got to thinking about the electrical current draw this water heater uses and I thought why not install some solar thermal to pre-heat the incoming water.

I bought two used 4'x8' flat panel solar hot water collectors but only connected one temporarily to my old 50 gallon gas water heater (gas line disconnected) which now feeds tempered water to the electric tankless heater. The gas water heater is only temporary until i find a permanent storage tank.

The results are very encouraging: during the first shower (there are 6 of us) the tankless came on briefly until the water arrived from the storage tank then remained off for the rest of the shower. The second shower did likewise but eventually began drawing 1000 watts according to our utility power meter outside.

Btw: I just got my latest electric bill and was pleasantly surprised to have a $25 credit. They gave me a $53 climate change credit which I believe is given out only once or twice a year and then my taxes and a little gas usage came out to about $28 in fees before the $53 credit. Amazing, right?
 
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