Phximiev
Posts: 1084
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:25 pm
Location: Phoenix

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:49 pm

Its a good read and shows the car as an intermediate step as batteries evolve. One would hope that in a few years PHEVs will go the way of the dinosaur. If a car like the Bolt can be sold for $25k that might be the case.

My belief continues that it would sell well here in the US, but who knows when that will happen.

Reminds me of the conversation that I had with the Mark Mitsubishi service folks who informed me that the delays in bringing the car to the US were caused by the lack of manufacturing capacity for the batteries and as a result Mitsubishi built/bought(?) their own battery plant for the PHEV. I haven't seen anything to confirm this tho.

BTW, Honest John kinda reminds me of Robert Llewelyn.
2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

phb10186
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 12:58 am
Location: North London suburbs, UK

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:20 am

Phximiev wrote:Its a good read and shows the car as an intermediate step as batteries evolve. One would hope that in a few years PHEVs will go the way of the dinosaur. If a car like the Bolt can be sold for $25k that might be the case.

My belief continues that it would sell well here in the US, but who knows when that will happen.

Reminds me of the conversation that I had with the Mark Mitsubishi service folks who informed me that the delays in bringing the car to the US were caused by the lack of manufacturing capacity for the batteries and as a result Mitsubishi built/bought(?) their own battery plant for the PHEV. I haven't seen anything to confirm this tho.

BTW, Honest John kinda reminds me of Robert Llewelyn.


Well Robert Llewellyn is an actor who made his name in the BBC Red Dwarf Sci-Fi comedy in the late 80s-1990s (though they have made recent series too with him in - if you can find a stream in the US, its well worth watching, well ahead of its time, very funny and entertaining). You can see Llewellyn as the Robocop C3P0 hybrid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxWN8AhNER0

Llewellyn only got involved in EV and green energy after the 'Cabled' IMIEV trial in 2001/2010 when he had a MIEV for a year, though his delivery nice to watch. He also did a few other series on TV a few years back.

Honest John is a pure motoring journalist, fairly dry, to the point, but his audience is the middle-aged white collar non-techie. HJ makes a lot of recommendations to the new car lease cohort, and that's a totally different buyer to me, who tends to buy used. That said, he does have a useful 'real world MPG' section, and a list of real owner reports and faults - which is a good addition lacking in most other places.

The problem with motoring journalists is they can only ever review at the time around the launch, there can be no incorporation of future trends and policy, nor long term reliability - that's were JD Power et al come in, and I take those as more useful, as I tent to be interested in the cars made about 3-5 years ago, as that's the age I buy at.

Maybe you just liken the two due to the dry-ish British delivery, with lack of coloured-up BS, as is the tradition here.

Back to the O-PHEV, you can read on HJ that reports of real world MPG are not nearly as good as the claims (I made ref to that before, becasue people buy for tax breaks rather than based around the driving they do= classifications to government tests vs real world use). That said, I think another reason the O-PHEV hasn't made it to the States yes is pure sticker price. In Europe and Japan, the sticker prices are higher than the US market equivalent, so a sale in these places is simply more profitable than one in the US. In the US, you also get longer fuller warranties, (10 years compared to 3-7 here), so it boils down to simple economics: profit margain.

I remember an old period in time around 2007 when I spent a few weeks in California and there was $2= £1, and I saw cars like the Chrysler 300C on sale for $20k, which would be £10K at the time, and that would be ludicrously cheap compared to UK sticker prices, where that would correspond to about 60% of the base sticker price for a low spec Civic... again at the time.

Time has moved on, and the £ isn't nearly as strong - so weak £ to Yen could also be a factor to US introduction, if when I beleive the UK is the 3rd largest consumer of O-PHEVs globally. Though if you can write most of the cost of the car off against corporation tax (as you can, which is why its so popular), perhaps sticker price becomes less important for the corporate purchase, which is in the same sort of bracket as an Audi A6/ BMW 5 - but far more cost effective than those two old models for the 'executive businessman'.

If, like so many people in the South of England, you value driving an automatic 4x4 SUV around permanently to take your kids to school and get groceries, then it makes complete sense to have electric drive, as an ICE variant is a totally pointless way of moving from A to B in the suburban environment. Also - and this is a crucial point somewhere like where I live; space is expensive, population density is high, and it costs £14 a day to take a car in to central London (if you were stupid enough to do it, as parking charges are astronomical) - then you arrive at a place where more people elect to have one car than 2, so an all-capable PHEV starts to make a bit more sense rationally. If I could only have one car, it would be a PHEV. Luckily I have a driveway and garage, so the IMIEV makes the good 2nd car - my wifes car as I stated was a RAV 4, now is an Insight Gen 2 (which I am looking to sell as it's had problems sadly), but the new wife-mobile is a tough decision, and likely to be a small SUV, just so I have what the IMIEV doesnt when we need it - though im not particularly looking forward to swapping one car for another with half the fuel economy - especially when she will now only drive an auto.

I have thought about the O-PHEV, but the used prices are holding up far better than I predicted... which also surprised me.

Lastly, I was under the impression that the O-PHEV shared a fair amount of drive similarity with the IMIEV, but perhaps the similarity away from the battery is less than I thought.

If you saw this fully charged episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt0-JMh6aS8

... then I learned that the British company GKN was behind the E-transaxle in the Leaf, O-PHEV and a raft of other vehicles. So, perhaps the O-PHEV moves away from a lot of the IMIEV traditional drivetrain.
2012 I-MIEV Keiko Silver 11K
2010 Insight ES-T 43K
2001 Accord Type-V (F23 manual)
2009 Hornet CB600F
2008 SH300

Phximiev
Posts: 1084
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:25 pm
Location: Phoenix

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:31 am

I don't know what kind of daily driving your wife does, but does the new electric Ioniq fit? It seems to be getting rave reviews on its forum and with its range may fit both the 'city' drivers as well as a good number of drivers taking longer highway trips. It also seems to be available in the UK. I haven't seen if HJ has done a review of it yet tho. Here's one person choosing the Ioniq over the PHEV: http://myioniq.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 1130#p1130

My intent is to explore it here in Phoenix when it comes, which per the local dealer here is late 2017. With its range it would fit most of our vacation driving as there are more than enough quick/J1772 chargers along the routes we typically take.

Enjoyed the red dwarf video! (Seen the other on the 'Fully Charged' topic).
2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

phb10186
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 12:58 am
Location: North London suburbs, UK

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:54 am

^ Well she works about 3 miles from home, and does a fair bit of kiddie moving. We have one child at the moment, and another likely in the next year or so. The Insight is a bit small to be fair - front passenger legroom is tight with a kid seat in the back, and the boot (trunk) isn't great once there is a pushchair in there.

On that premise, I think the Ioniq looks about the same size an Insight... so its not a great benefit. That takes me to what I call an Estate, but you may call it a tourer or station wagon; or a crossover or MPV/ people carrier, and it also has to be auto, and not diesel (as they are clobbering those with preventative taxation/ legislation now and in the next few years).

Being in London, I would prefer a higher and narrower vehicle to a wider or longer one, and there aren't many cars that fit well there, at least good autos. I am a well established Toyota and Honda buyer, as I have good reason to think that they make decent auto gearboxes - i'm definitely sticking to Japanese over European or US branded. The only non-Japanese brand I would consider nowadays is a Ford - but I have had 2 friends with S-Max auto gearbox failures, so I don't think I am going there. She also isn't the most careful person in the world (much to my frustration), so her cars tend to get peppered with small scratches/ car door dents, alloy wheel scuffs and so on. Hence, I'm going to get something a bit older but sturdy - and funnily enough the old RAV-4 she had was the only car that met her match, and didn't look like it had been dragged through a swamp backwards when she was done with it.

So my options seem to be focused around the following:

RAV-4 (good all round)
CR-V (also good all round, but I think the RAV pipps it)
RX400H (probably the best, but these are getting a bit old now)
Toyota Verso (though I think the auto option may be limited)
Honda FR-V maybe (like the car, but good ones are the same proce as a RAV-4, and they are pretty wide.
Prius + ( i'd like one of these, but the used prices are so strong its not worth it - Uber taxi too).
-Ive had the Leaf conversation, which would suit her perfectly, but she seems to be convinced that it isn't large enough.
- I've also had the O-PHEV conversation, but that's going to be twice the price, and I've got my cash in a load of building work at the moment on our house.

I've looked at the Quashki, Mitsubishi ASX, Vitara and Suzuiki S-cross and they are OK, but dull and average.

Ive also got my mother in laws old 2005 BMW X3 that's on offer, which I hate, as it's awful on fuel - but it benefits from pre-ruined condition (it is unfortunately a family trait of theirs - compared to me being completely anal about keeping things looking perfect and new), though it has a habit of going wrong in that BMW sort of way - and it also uses oil, which is not something I am accustomed to having always driven Japanese, so that unnerves me.

Remember in London, we have a terrible combination of very tight parking spaces, and morons that open their door on to yours, thus denting it... it's a life-ruining situation that.

Lastly, because the IMIEV now means I cant practically take a second car on a holiday if I needed the space, as I have in the past - I need a car that can shift 2 adults, 2 kids and a load of stuff in comfort, and - what was particularly useful with the RAV: the odd washing machine or dishwasher too when needed.

So, it's not been the easiest thing planning between size, cost, durability and economy. I certainly wouldnt want to go larger than a RAV-4 in London these days, it's just too busy now.... unlike all those years ago when I first started driving!
2012 I-MIEV Keiko Silver 11K
2010 Insight ES-T 43K
2001 Accord Type-V (F23 manual)
2009 Hornet CB600F
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jray3
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Re: Future battery replacement

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:50 am

Phximiev wrote:The question is whether it would fit the iMiev.


Well besides blind hope, Mitsu continues to produce the Outlander PHEV for the rest of the world and claims it'll eventually arrive here, with well over 100,000 produced that they'll have to support in many markets, including a lot of government fleets. If the LEV40 cells used in the Outlander become LEV80 in the same form factor, that'd make a nice i-MiEV upgrade with room in the case to spare. If a higher capacity cell is installed but restricted to only the original i-MiEV discharge spec by our firmware, it would outlast the originals by a wide margin.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 70,000 miles
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2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
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zzcoopej
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Re: Future battery replacement

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:07 pm

jray3 wrote:Outlander PHEV for the rest of the world and claims it'll eventually arrive here....

According to this, the PHEV can be ordered in both USA and Canada now -

http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/vi ... =14&t=3211

After contacting a half dozen dealers within about 6 hours driving time from me here in southwestern Colorado, I am happy to learn that the 2018 Outlander PHEV is now available for pre-order at many dealers, although not all are certified to service it. Dealers appear to have only small allocations at this point for possible delivery early in 2018, possibly in January. So far it appears that the MSRP is not available, but based on Canadian pre-order sites I would guess the base model will be $31-34K in USA dollars, plus be eligible for federal and state rebates/credits that could bring it down to the mid-20K range in some states. Colorado, for example, may provide $5K. We don't have specifications here yet either. I see that the Canadian model appears to have fast charging--I'm hoping that will be the case here too.

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Phximiev
Posts: 1084
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Re: Future battery replacement

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:53 pm

zzcoopej wrote:
jray3 wrote:Outlander PHEV for the rest of the world and claims it'll eventually arrive here....

According to this, the PHEV can be ordered in both USA and Canada now -

http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/vi ... =14&t=3211

After contacting a half dozen dealers within about 6 hours driving time from me here in southwestern Colorado, I am happy to learn that the 2018 Outlander PHEV is now available for pre-order at many dealers, although not all are certified to service it. Dealers appear to have only small allocations at this point for possible delivery early in 2018, possibly in January. So far it appears that the MSRP is not available, but based on Canadian pre-order sites I would guess the base model will be $31-34K in USA dollars, plus be eligible for federal and state rebates/credits that could bring it down to the mid-20K range in some states. Colorado, for example, may provide $5K. We don't have specifications here yet either. I see that the Canadian model appears to have fast charging--I'm hoping that will be the case here too.


Had they lived up to their word and actually brought the PHEV to market in Phoenix (way back when), we would have considered one. But we bought the used Volt instead as a result. After having the Volt for several months now, we happen to think very highly of it. One of the key features is the battery cooling. The book says plug it in when its over 90 degrees and we did - every day all summer (and on and on! In fact, its on now). The cooling fan starts up and gives anyone with EV experience a high degree of confidence that the battery will be protected. Between the two, I would now recommend the Volt over the Mitsubishi. It certainly has more EV miles and the battery tech now appears to be outstanding.

We are looking forward to the decision in the future as other members are, Bolt or Model 3. On balancing reputations, we remember EV1, but now they have the Volt and Bolt. On the other hand, Mitsubishi has sullied their own reputation as is well documented in this forum. Their conduct was a great disappointment to us as I'm sure it was to many other members.

When will it arrive? I'm certain that I won't believe Mitsubishi until I actually see one at the dealer.
2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

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