2006Corolla
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 am

Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:59 am

First off, I'm a first time non-EV owning poster. I've been seriously considering purchasing an I-MIEV or Spark EV(test drove 1 :) ) and am constantly looking at classifieds

Looking at the classifieds today I found this:

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto ... 03057.html

"Completely electric car with BRAND NEW BATTERIES installed by dealer. Regularly gets between 86-110 miles per charge." Guess-O-Meter says 96 miles (not Km).

Either this is a scam or what I'm more inclined to believe, is a greater capacity battery replacement (somewhere between 20-24kwh). I just wanted to throw this out there. I'd go take a look for myself, but I'm ~500 miles away and I prefer any paint color so long as it's not black.
2015 Chevrolet Spark EV
2014 Ford CMAX Energi
2006 Toyota Corolla 5spd
1995 Ford F-150 300 5spd 4wd

JoeS
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Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:31 am

Hi 2006Corolla, you came to the right place to ask.

First off, this particular car with DCQC and a brand-new battery pack is very desirable. I personally agree with you about the color as my very first car (an Austin Healey 3000) was black and I swore I would never again get a black car. Personal preference. I'd be inclined to haggle over the price.

No, there is no modification to make the pack larger. Range, as we say here, is anything you want it to be. It's simply a function of speed: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=208&start=40#p17565

Concern over range is the #1 question asked by those unfamiliar with electric cars. With time, this proves to be a non-issue. Read this thread to appreciate the situation: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=566

Recognize that the average daily number of daily miles driven in the US is slightly above 30. If needed, most of us can get over 75 miles on a single charge, but it is almost never needed in daily life. Even though my wife and I put on over 1000 miles/month on each of our two i-MiEVs, we normally charge the cars to 75% and almost never go below 20% charge level. In daily life, the i-MiEV's range is sufficient for our driving needs, with the rarely-used DCQC allowing effortless travel of well over 100 mile radius in the entire San Francisco Bay Area.

More to the point for you: will you be commuting in this car and how many miles is it to work? Where do you live (i.e., what's your climate)? Do you have the ability to plug the car into the wall (120vac) while at work?
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

2006Corolla
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 am

Joe,

Thank you very much for your reply. I'm gracious for the work you do here.

I live in the greater Charlotte,NC area with a 63 round trip commute (2/3 interstate).... I've spoken to my employer's HR, environmental engineer, and even union reps, it seems without any employees owning an EV (2000+ employees at our plant and not a single EV or even Plug in :( ) they don't much care about EV charging infrastructure. With owning an EV and creating a proposal for a relatively inexpensive level 2 or 1 setup, I'm hoping I can achieve something. Alternatively, there is a free chademo charger in the middle of the commute :) and a Greenlots SAE/Chademo of questionable operation, along with a few free level 2 chargers on route.

I think I'm a fairly efficient driver and with keeping my Corolla in reserve, should have no problems driving mostly electric without worry. http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/coroll ... spd/149587

On the subject of the I-MIEV battery, you don't think it's likely Mitsubishi is using GS Yuasa LEV-75's, instead of the original LEV-50?
Sorry for lack of a link and forgive my likely foolishness, but I watched a YouTube video (of course), where someone drove in "ideal" conditions and was able to achieve a range, with lots of effort, of 97 miles with a new I-MIEV. What is the highest range you've experienced on a guess-o-meter. I'll reach out to the seller in Philly and see if he's willing to share his invoice.

http://pushevs.com/2015/11/12/gs-yuasa-new-cells/ I'm sure you are familiar with this, but for anyone else.

Thank you again, and I apologize for any noobness.
2015 Chevrolet Spark EV
2014 Ford CMAX Energi
2006 Toyota Corolla 5spd
1995 Ford F-150 300 5spd 4wd

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:12 pm

He's stretching the truth just a bit here and there, methinks ;)

First, "Regularly gets between 86 to 110 miles per charge" is a bit of a stretch - You would have to drive very conservatively and quite slowly. I have never seen a documented 110 miles, but it may be possible . . . . if you drive 20 mph on level ground using no heat or A/C - It's a little disingenuous to pretend this would be a 'regular' occurrence

Second, I don't think you can do an honest "85 mph, easily" as he claims, let alone "felt like it could do more". Mitsu says 80 mph tops and both of mine top out at 82 mph - It takes forever to get there and there's no doubt in your mind it's not going to make it to 83 . . . . even downhill - The motor is RPM limited and it won't go any faster downhill than it does on level ground

Third "No fluid changes ie. engine oil, transmission oil (no transmission)" isn't accurate either. There *is* a single speed transmission of course (a 10,000 rpm motor needs reducing to the rpm the wheels require) and it *does* have oil in it which will need to be changed, though not often. It does have a water pump and an air filter too - In the cabin

Fourth, the battery warranty is not 12 years or 100,000 miles - It's 10 years and assuming this car is a 2012, it has only a little over 4 years of that left. We don't know for absolute certain either if it has a 'brand new' one, or maybe a slightly used one Mitsu rebuilt from parts of others which have failed. Pretty much guaranteed it won't have the advertised 50 ah capacity

Last, I would question the 'full roll cage' as it doesn't have anything more than any other car should you happen to get it upside down

But . . . . it looks to be a very good buy for what it is - A nice, clean, well cared for example and at a very reasonable price, IMO. If you have a 63 mile round trip commute with 2/3rds of it freeway, you're not going to do it in this car though. On a perfect windless day with no heat or A/C and never going faster than 55, you *might* get back home with little or no reserve . . . . on a perfect day - But it's for sure not going to work for you every day and you shouldn't purchase this car thinking it will . . . . or even that it 'might'

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

2006Corolla
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:43 am

Don,

Thank you for your detailed response and for the work you do with the forum.

The classified, as you rightly pointed out, is riddled with embellishment and outright misstatements. The thing that caught my eye, was the guess-o-meter display reading 96 miles, after a replaced battery pack. Is it easy to fudge the guess-o-meter? Could you say, charge to full, drive around the block at 20 mph, come back and charge, repeatedly, and get it to give you this reading (I'm not saying this is what he did)?

Regarding battery replacement, I was wondering if there is any precedent for a higher capacity battery replacement under warranty? I'm guessing the answer is no. I have seen that there is a forum member that is in the process of having their traction battery replaced, so I'm curious to see their result. While I'm sure Mitsubishi has a stockpile of replacement packs and maybe even singular LEV-50 cells (new or harvested from defective packs), there must be and end to this supply. I guess only time will tell.

Thank you for providing realistic range information. I'm sure much money and time has been wasted by people buying a particular EV, that didn't meet their needs (in some cases an EV isn't a viable option at all). Without being able to charge at work, or quick charging for at least 10 min on either my way to or from work, I agree with you, a I-MIEV isn't a suitable option for my 63 mile commute.
2015 Chevrolet Spark EV
2014 Ford CMAX Energi
2006 Toyota Corolla 5spd
1995 Ford F-150 300 5spd 4wd

JoeS
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:06 pm

2006Corolla, so far Mitsubishi has been outstanding regarding battery replacement when an outright failure (usually of one cell) has occurred. Yes, a little slow getting back to the dealership and, more importantly, getting the replacement packs and all the installation machinery to the dealership since, as I understand it, they only have five such 'kits' available in the US (don't know about Canada).

Unlike the apparent unpredicatability of the Leaf's Guess-O-Meter (GOM), the i-MiEV's Range Remaining (RR) algorithm is very straightforward: it is a prediction based on a 15-mile moving average of one's past driving. We refrain from associating our RR with the Leaf's GOM. Naturally, if hill-climbing (or descents) or high- or low-speeds were involved, that affects RR but you, the driver, is aware of that and can easily mentally compensate. Yes, we can cheat the system and, as you pointed out, drive slowly or downhill and then fully charge the car to obtain RR=96.

In your commute situation a simple 120vac outlet at work would be more than enough to enable serious everyday use of the i-MiEV. You might do some poking around work to see if you could make that happen on a daily basis. I often thought that making a deal (offer to pay for the electricity) with a private neighbor would make sense if that were possible. The CHAdeMO chargers along the way to/from work I would not consider viable for commuting (cost and availability). If it doesn't work out, then you are to be congratulated for doing your homework and assessing the i-MiEV's viability for your situation, with the realization that an EV with a range closer to 100 miles will be more suitable.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:24 pm

The RR meter is a computerized projection of how far you should be able to go based on the energy used over the previous 15 miles - You can't 'fudge' it to 96 miles, but if you lived in the valley and you drove to the top of a hill where you had 15 miles of downhill driving to get to there you're going to plug it in for a recharge, you would get a quite unreasonable number on your RR display after that full recharge - The computer thinks your next 96 miles is going to be driven like you did the last 15 miles - Namely, all downhill, and in that case, it would probably take you close to 90 or 95 miles

The range you're going to actually get is based on your commute. An 80 mile round trip is certainly possible and I've done it a few times, but you've got to be very gentle (you'll learn that as you get accustomed to the car) and your speed will need to be mostly in the 30 to 40 mph range. Freeway driving will get you much less. Early on, we made a round trip freeway jaunt and just barely made it home - We had another destination in mind but halfway through the available juice it became very apparent that if we went there, we'd never make it back

After the first month or two, 'Range Anxiety' becomes pretty much a non-issue for most of us - We learn how to drive the car efficiently, learn what the RR meter is actually telling us and we've got to where we seldom ever charge the car fully, since we didn't need a full pack for most trips. We usually go 3 or 4 days, driving where we need to go before we charge at all and unless we're headed out on a 'max range' trip, we usually try to charge to only around 80% or so

I just didn't want you to buy this car based on his 96 RR photo and other misleading claims about how far he 'regularly' goes thinking you were going to make a 63 mile daily commute with 40 miles of freeway driving . . . . and expect to be happy with your purchase - Doing that you would be looking at maximum 'Range Anxiety' day in and day out and I fear you would probably be unhappy with your purchase. IMO, nobody needs to make exaggerated claims to sell used iMiEV's because they are very good at what they do, so long as the owner doesn't have unrealistic expectations, and he's setting up whoever he sells this car to for a big disappointment I fear. You would probably love the car . . . . but not if you bought it thinking it will easily do your 63 mile commute with all those freeway miles

No, Mitsu isn't replacing battery packs with anything with a higher capacity than they came with - I suspect not even with the newer 50 amp cells, but we can't say that for sure. We just don't know

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

rnlcarlov
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:30 am

Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 am

I already had 90 miles displayed in my car, since I made the last distance before charging in a mostly flat terrain at a relatively slow speed due to some traffic (not stopping, just slow). So it's not that hard to get high numbers on RR meter. If you go slow enough you can do miracles. One driver here in Portugal got 127 miles out of it. Of course, those were not speeds you'd use in everyday life.

On the freeway I can make around 60-65 miles if I'm driving around 52-55mph. Did this several times. No heating used but some AC. Back when there were less DCQC in the freeway, I managed to get 75 miles on 82% of charge as long as I kept around 44mph.
This is just to give you an idea what you should expect from this small car. I use it for both short trips and also long trips when there are several Chademo chargers on the way (I once did +390 miles in one day). Once you know you much the car consumes at each speed (Canion app is a mighty tool), it's easy to calculate how much you can get out of your car (usable energy is around 14kWh).

PV1
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Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:10 pm

I might as well chime in, too. Last year, I got 96 miles on the RR in real world conditions (not driven, projected range). I drove back roads (my norm) on a 98-degree day with A/C on full blast, shared between the cabin and the battery. I ultimately ended up in downtown Pittsburgh, where I fully charged at a public level 2 station.

I never expected to get this high of a number (still my record). I found out that A/C and heater usage only affect the RR value when they are active.

Unless the battery was re-packed, there's no way anyone driving faster than 25 MPH will get near 100 miles per charge. If you can guarantee workplace charging, the i-MiEV can work. If not, I'd look for something with an EPA-rated range near or over 100 miles.

As for charging at work, a simple 20 amp, 120 volt outlet is plenty. Even better, a NEMA 14-50 will be future-proof for pretty much any EV charging.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.

barrylevine
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Re: Larger capacity battery replacement (20+kwh?!?)

Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:11 am

Coming a little late to this thread. I've had my imiev since July 2016, and drive it to several music gigs per week. One of them is a 61 mile round trip, on roads where I'm averaging about 35-45 mph. I get home with about 12 miles of range left on the gauge. Often the RR gauge in the morning after recharge will be in the 80's (less in the winter here in Massachusetts). One time I did this trip, and ignored an RR reading of 57 at the start, figuring it had to do with some previous fast driving. Got the turtle 5 miles away from home, but got home no problem. Anyway, I think a 63 mile round trip commute in Charlotte NC that's only partly on highway should be quite do-able.

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