bradleydavidgood777
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am
Location: Media, PA

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:27 am

Genious Don! Thank you. That is an awesome idea. I guess I could ground the box to a copper grounding rod 6 feet into the ground outside - which I am going to install for the solar panels and inverter system anyway. That way the 4th wire of the EVSE receptacle (female) in the box would be grounded to the box and to the rod in the ground....so then I am protected by the fuses and the grounding. I am not sure abou that but grounding sounds like a good idea to me just in case anything gets in contact with any of the 240v at some point. And in the solar/turbine system that I'm hooking up too....which is 24v...and it says to ground it on the positive side of that system. And to run grounds to the housing of each panel. So all of that would have to be connected to the ground rod eventually. I think I'll run all of this by the electrician before I turn it on and maybe just continue with the 120v for now. If I'm going to install a box for EV charging, maybe I just want that to be done by an electrician - with your suggestion in mind. Would be a good first step working with the electrician.

First step would be to upgrade my dryer plug to 4 prong receptacle (with new wire from main utility panel) and also install a separate EV breaker box with the fuses and ground the whole thing. I could also get my 100 amp main box replaced with a 200 amp box because I need to do that anyway and that would take care of all of my main big wires and the major upgrades. The I could do the other stuff later with the solar/turbine/battery bank and also the conversion from gas hot water to instant electric water.

I think you really helped me get to my next steps. Thank you!!! If anyone has any other ideas based upon hearing the other factors I just mentioned let me know!

Thanks for your help!
2017 I-Miev

JoeS
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Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:18 pm

Dryers are usually plugged into 30A circuits. Old dryer outlets were NEMA 10-30 and new dryer outlets are now NEMA 14-30.

Ovens and RVs nowadays utilize NEMA 14-50, which is the outlet I would install for EV use if at all possible.

I once tried to install 14-50 in a garage and made the mistake of telling the inspector it was for a dryer and thus had to subsequently back off and put in a 30A circuit breaker and 14-30 outlet. :(

The 14-50 and 14-30 Ground and Neutral are tied together at the circuit breaker panel, which is then supposed to be properly 'grounded'. bradleydavidgood777, if you utilize an electrician s/he will hopefully be up to speed regarding the latest codes and appropriate grounding (which are ever-changing, especially in the world of renewable energy). As an aside, HomePower magazine has an informative discussion of code updates and implementation in every issue.

Many years ago I standardized my collection of adapters using NEMA L6-30 which was far more than adequate for the i-MiEV.http://www.katiekat.net/Vehicles/Mitsi/EVSEAdaptersJoeS.pdf
Now, with modern EV chargers drawing 32A, I find that my collection is obsolete and I keep adding more.

Looking to the future, although I'm comfortably running my Tesla HPWC at 40A on the three-prong 6-50 welder circuit for now, I can program my Tesla with dual chargers to draw 80A so I'm contemplating hardwiring the HPWC into my presently-unused furnace 100A circuit if I want to run any higher. Why unused? - I burned wood for 20 years, but now understand the carcinogenic and greenhouse gas error of my ways and still don't use the darn thing and simply have space heaters scattered throughout my all-electric house. :roll:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

bradleydavidgood777
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am
Location: Media, PA

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:27 pm

Thanks JoeS. The amazing e plug is 4 prong dryer 14-30. So that's why I was thinking of upgrading the dryer outlet and then I could plug into that. However, that would not work because the amazing e cord is not long enough to reach my car. So I think your idea would be good. Install the 14-50 as a second outlet with proper safety and codes and then use a 14-50 RV extension cord and then an adapter from 14-50 to 14-30 so that the amazing e can plug into the 14-30. Sound like a plan?
2017 I-Miev

bradleydavidgood777
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am
Location: Media, PA

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:01 pm

I'm going to revive this old thread. Since I'm having issues with my stock EVSE, I'm thinking about this AmazingE EVSE I have laying around. It would be nice to have this as an option because it would then allow me to charge at 16A instead of the 12A I charge at now. Does anyone know how long it takes to charge fully from zero on 16A? If I could do that in 10-12 hours then it would really make this option attractive and maybe worth paying an electrician to do this work and get it all done right somehow.

I've given up on the idea of using my dryer outlet because it is in the back of the house and I would want to charge in front of the house. So I'm thinking that I would need to get a new circuit run to an outdoor waterproof box in the front of the house so that I can plug in outside with a NEMA 14-50 extension cord going to the car (35-40 feet). From there I would still need an adapter from the 14-50 to the AmazingE which is 14-30. Unless I just cut that 14-30 off the AmazingE and put a 14-50 plug on it (if that would be safe to do for the outdoor connection in the weather).

My 100Amp main box is full so I would need a sub box or a new 200Amp box which I know is expensive.

So assuming I do a sub box off the main, a new circuit from that thru the basement 35 feet, thru thick stone foundation to the outside to mount an outside waterproof 14-50 receptacle with it all up to code and safe. Then buy an RV cable 14-50 on both ends, and replace the AmazingE plug with a 14-50 plug (outdoor).

What do you guys think of that plan? Does it make sense and what price range would you think I would be in for an electrician to do that job? I am just trying to make a plan and understand how much it would cost and if it would be worth it to get to 16A. And that has to do with how fast I can get the car charged on 16A. If I can charge the car fully in 12 hours that means I come home on fumes, plug in, wake up and go do it again the next day, which is attractive to me because there is a possibility that I can't get into my spot at work some days and come home empty.
2017 I-Miev

wmcbrine
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Location: Laurel, MD
Contact: Website

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:03 am

bradleydavidgood777 wrote:From there I would still need an adapter from the 14-50 to the AmazingE which is 14-30. Unless I just cut that 14-30 off the AmazingE and put a 14-50 plug on it (if that would be safe to do for the outdoor connection in the weather).

If you remove the neutral prong from a 14-30 plug, it will fit into either a 14-30 or 14-50 receptacle, as well as into the rarely-seen 14-60. Most EVSEs don't use the neutral at all, so this is pretty safe. I dunno about the AmazingE.

I'm not sure what you're asking about the charging times. A Level 2 (240V) charge, on the i-MiEV, maxes out at 13.75A (not 16), and takes about 6 hours, as it says in the i-MiEV's manual. If you're thinking of a Level 1 (120V) charge at 16A, well, that wouldn't involve NEMA 14-* plugs...

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:44 am

Yes, the difference between charging with 12 amps and 16 is pretty minimal, since the car won't draw much more than 13. I've been charging at 12 for 6 years. Recently bought a 16 amp EVSE for my Volt and installed it much like you are thinking of doing

My wife's ceramic kiln has it's own dedicated outlet in the garage which she makes use of about twice a year. It's on a 40 amp breaker, so I made a 12/3 pigtail to plug into that. The pigtail runs to a pair of ceramic fuse sockets I mounted near the ceiling with 20 amp cartridge fuses and from there I ran 12/3 wire to my new outlet, which is an L6-20 Twist Lock mounted on a pole close to the car. I installed an L6-20 plug on my new EVSE and the Volt charges at the max it's capable of, drawing just shy of 16 amps

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4018

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

bradleydavidgood777
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am
Location: Media, PA

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:11 pm

wmcbrine wrote:
bradleydavidgood777 wrote:From there I would still need an adapter from the 14-50 to the AmazingE which is 14-30. Unless I just cut that 14-30 off the AmazingE and put a 14-50 plug on it (if that would be safe to do for the outdoor connection in the weather).

If you remove the neutral prong from a 14-30 plug, it will fit into either a 14-30 or 14-50 receptacle, as well as into the rarely-seen 14-60. Most EVSEs don't use the neutral at all, so this is pretty safe. I dunno about the AmazingE.

I'm not sure what you're asking about the charging times. A Level 2 (240V) charge, on the i-MiEV, maxes out at 13.75A (not 16), and takes about 6 hours, as it says in the i-MiEV's manual. If you're thinking of a Level 1 (120V) charge at 16A, well, that wouldn't involve NEMA 14-* plugs...


Thanks wmcbrine,

That's a good idea about removing the ground. However, the AmazingE manual indicates that a fault will occur if proper grounding is not present. (Page 10 of the manual https://amazing-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/AmazingE-User-Manual-20170602.pdf)

Also, there is this on their website:
Q: I have an older home that has a 3-wire 240V receptacle vice the 14-30, 4 wire that your product uses. Do you make a 3 prong 240V charger?
A: The 3 prong dryer outlet is an older style dryer outlet that was replaced with the 4 prong outlet in the early 90s. The 3 prong outlet is called the NEMA 10-30 and we do not offer the AmazingE with the matching plug type because the corresponding outlet for this plug type is typically wired with a neutral wire as opposed to an earth ground and the AmazingE will require an earth ground connection in order to operate properly. Additionally, when charging a vehicle the ground is passed through to the vehicle from the station for safety earth grounding during charging. If a neutral is used instead of a ground the neutral could generate a charge on the vehicle chassis, creating a potential safety hazard upon contact with the vehicle during or after charging. If you find a charging station available with the NEMA 10-30 plug it is likely not safety certified. It would be recommended to have your outlet repurposed into the NEMA 14-30 outlet to match the plug type that comes with the AmazingE.


So I actually think I may need to have an earth ground installed (grounding rod). Unless the jump to the copper water pipe that I have is a sufficient "earth ground".

What I'm asking about charging time is what I could expect from the AmazingE. Time to charge the i-Miev from totally empty to full. Their documentation says that it will deliver 11 miles per hour at 16A. And I someone stated earlier in this thread that the i-miev charges at 16A. So that's where I got that from. User manual page 24 is where it says maximum current 16A. I don't see the charge times in the i-miev manual but 6 hours sounds great. The AmazingE is level 2 (240V).
2017 I-Miev

bradleydavidgood777
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am
Location: Media, PA

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:39 pm

Don wrote:Yes, the difference between charging with 12 amps and 16 is pretty minimal, since the car won't draw much more than 13. I've been charging at 12 for 6 years. Recently bought a 16 amp EVSE for my Volt and installed it much like you are thinking of doing

My wife's ceramic kiln has it's own dedicated outlet in the garage which she makes use of about twice a year. It's on a 40 amp breaker, so I made a 12/3 pigtail to plug into that. The pigtail runs to a pair of ceramic fuse sockets I mounted near the ceiling with 20 amp cartridge fuses and from there I ran 12/3 wire to my new outlet, which is an L6-20 Twist Lock mounted on a pole close to the car. I installed an L6-20 plug on my new EVSE and the Volt charges at the max it's capable of, drawing just shy of 16 amps

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4018

Don


Thanks Don,

I am currently charging at 12A level 1 (120V). So I'm thinking that the upgrade to the AmazingE level 2 240V would be about 3 times faster which would be like wmcbrine said - about 6 hours.

I'm just trying to figure out what to tell the electrician that I want and what cords I'm going to use from the new outdoor socket to the car and adapters...
2017 I-Miev

JoeS
Site Moderator
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 pm

bradleydavidgood777 wrote:My 100Amp main box is full so I would need a sub box or a new 200Amp box which I know is expensive.
Code will probably not allow an additional sub-box. If you upgrade your main panel to 200A, then go ahead and run the conduit and put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet, as this will future-proof you for your next EV. The increase in hardware cost over a 14-30 should be minimal, and the labor is the same.

Without getting into a grounding discussion, just note that Neutral and Ground are tied together at your house power input panel. EVSEs typically do not use Neutral or Ground for carrying any current.

The i-MiEV does NOT draw 16A at 240vac, no matter what the EVSE is capable of. I think the most I ever saw was 13A using my 40A E-Motor Werks EVSE with my i-MiEV.

If you're going for low cost, then the EVSE Don bought for his Volt for under $200 would be my preference; nevertheless, I'd be inclined to buy something that could provide 24A or 32A or even higher for your next EV. I talked my brother-in-law into getting this 32A (adjustable and 120vac/240vac) EVSE for his BoltEV, and it will handle just about any situation on the road:
https://www.evseadapters.com/collections/ev-chargers-and-evses/products/16-30a-adjustable-120-240v-charger-evse
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: 240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:08 pm

JoeS wrote:Without getting into a grounding discussion, just note that Neutral and Ground are tied together at your house power input panel. EVSEs typically do not use Neutral or Ground for carrying any current.
Not only are they tied together, they are also tied to an 8 foot copper clad ground rod driven into the ground just below the power panel where utility power enters your house, so whenever you tie to either neutral or ground, you're getting an earth ground. The neutral wire is also grounded at most power (telephone) poles, which is why it can be an uninsulated wire coming to your house - Neutral *is* grounded in so many places

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

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