veimi
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Location: Toronto Canada

Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:36 pm

An article I read in Ars Technica indicated that some states (Colorado, Nebraska, North Carolina, Virginia, Washington) have annual electric vehicle fees to compensate for lost gas taxes.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/07/ele ... sequences/

Just curious if any on this forum gave been exposed to them and how large they are.

It seems to me that this is likely to be an inevitable outcome everywhere as more electric vehicles appear on the road in the future.

melloyello
Posts: 61
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Location: Atlanta

Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:28 am

$200/yr here in GA. It's higher than it really should be to compensate for gas tax revenue.

siai47
Posts: 363
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:12 am

Florida hasn't had a tax on electrics yet. However, they did have a sticker you had to buy for CNG powered vehicles. $150.00 per year per vehicle. Problem was (and this will impact electrics if enacted) it was necessary to use a "refueling station". At the time, there were only a couple of public CNG refueling stations in the entire state--and they were unattended so nobody there to see if you had the required sticker. Then you run in to the issue of vehicles that run on more than one fuel. In my case, the vehicles I had could run on gasoline or natural gas. One fuel already taxed at the pump, one taxed by the sticker. Do I get a rebate or credit for double taxation on gasoline? PHEV's come to mind in the EV word as being bi-fuel vehicles that would have this problem. What about taxes I paid for the electricity I put in the vehicle? I am not being taxed for the electricity used by the gasoline station. How about someone who travels or lives out of state part of the year. In my case, I am a Florida resident but live out of the state in the summer. The sticker only applied to Florida registered vehicles so the workaround (if I needed it) would be to register the CNG vehicles in another state and skip it all together. They finally dropped the requirement because nobody bought them anyway.

The whole gas tax thing is a mess for states in general. When fuel prices were high, many states switched to a sales tax based on price per gallon. When fuel prices fall, the same states switch to a fixed tax on gallons. As cars get better fuel economy, taxes based on a tax per gallon drop. In many states, the fuel tax is supposed to go to roads---but it is just dumped into the general fund to pay for unpopular programs that the public doesn't want to fund. When the roads need repair, the state responds with a tax increase proposal--which the public blindly accepts---and the roads still don't get fixed because the funds are being diverted to someone's pet project that has nothing to do with roads. I don't know what the answer is but if you look out to the "left" coast and see some of the proposals and trial projects based on GPS tracking of your vehicle and charging a cost per mile, you will quickly end up riding a bike (oops! bikes use the roads also and in some plans will be taxed). Some of the proposals were as high as 25 cents per mile in addition to the existing fuel taxes! Hey, the government (Federal, State, Local) is broke. They will get the money to keep up their special interest deals going from somewhere. And seeing how they don't produce anything of economic value, the politicians and the government need money from productive sources (you) to pay their salaries and live the lifestyle you would like--only if you could afford it. Rant over.

JoeS
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:35 am

Generally speaking, roadwear is proportional to vehicle weight; thus, a tax based on vehicle weight and miles driven is equitable for all vehicles and is one I would support.

If we don't want to do that and with gasoline prices at historic lows, the US is missing an enormous opportunity to enact a relatively-painless tax increase on fossil fuels at the gas/diesel pump. Don't get me going on political will in this country...

Taxing EVs is counterproductive to the whole concept of fostering emissions-free vehicles. If it were enacted here, I would simply suspend the registration/insurance on my minimally-used BEVs to compensate. :twisted:

Never have found an analysis which identifies the public health costs per ICE-vehicle.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
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Don
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:00 am

siai47 wrote:Hey, the government (Federal, State, Local) is broke. They will get the money to keep up their special interest deals going from somewhere. And seeing how they don't produce anything of economic value, the politicians and the government need money from productive sources (you) to pay their salaries and live the lifestyle you would like--only if you could afford it. Rant over.
They're largely broke because of tax cuts for the rich, which they make up by taxing the rest of us more - We all drive some sort of car, so any tax levied in any way on transportation is a new tax on the 95% of us who didn't get any part of the tax cuts which necessitated the new taxes

Here in Mississippi, the most recent round of tax cuts put us in the red - Luckily, we have the BP oil spill money which will soon be added to the general revenue, so money which should go to restoring our coastal waters from the huge oil spill will now be diverted to cover the deficit caused by the tax cuts. Problem is, we'll likely re-elect the crooks who are doing this

Don
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PV1
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:55 am

Still flying clear in PA. Given how many gas industry vehicles are on the roads here (what's left of the roads, to be more accurate), taxing EVs wouldn't make a dent.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
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rmay635703
Posts: 83
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:48 am

Wisconsin was fighting hard to charge EV and Hybrid and alternative fuel owners a $50 a year fee, which fell through.

Now they are fighting for a $150 fee plus adding wheel taxes.

I argued with some idiots quite hard about how charging the under 10,000 EV owners in the state a special fee did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to pay for roads.
Even if they charged $2000 a year that would only pay for a 150 miles of road!

the backlash and admin costs of taxing such a small group likely negates any benefit whatsoever.

Furthermore, I only pay about 12-14% "Gas tax" on a normal car, shouldn't my EV also pay the same percentage on its fuel?
(PS I use under $100 of electricity to power my car a year)

For people who own hobby cars it will hit quite hard and result in me personally getting rid of my EVs and hybrids.

I will move back to my 1989 diesel 5mt suburban (28mpg) and my 60mpg 1970 Subaru 360,
the costs of repairs are far lower than paying the fees, insurance and license plate fees on newer cars.

There is such a small percentage of electric vehicles in the state this is the exact opposite of what should be done and furthermore our state is dead LAST in any type of funding for real alternative energy sources (discounting burning wood)

It is just sad and pathetic this is how they are trying to cover up a right wing promise (not to raise taxes) to penalize people for making decisions they don't support and to avoid raising our gas tax a couple percent.

Just Pathetic.

phb10186
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:27 pm

This entire thing reads like a page out of the idiots guide to governance and policy.

Not that agree with the UK system and don't the US one, but gas here is about $7 a gallon, about 70% of that is tax, pure tax.

Thus the more fuel you use the more you pay, all other variables excluded... now I'm not saying those prices are justified, but clearly if you drive a V8 SUV you're going to pay your fair share. If you drive a city car you pay a lot less... that's pretty equitable in my book. We are now in times that don't mandate 30mpg 20 mpg or whatever, you can get a cheap 60mpg capable car if that's your perogative.

What we also have is an emissions based (g CO2 per KM... even though we use miles and MPG - it's an EU measure) road tax, big cars pay up to £1000 a year, low emissions can be free. Most average cars are about £150 a year I suppose.

All EVS and PHEVs are free. The insight is £10 a year, the IMIEV is free.

There's the solution, fund lost fuel revenue by taxing gas guzzlers... simple. Europe does that, and has done that for 25 years.
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rmay635703
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:23 pm

Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:48 pm

phb10186 wrote:This entire thing reads like a page out of the idiots guide to governance and policy.

Not that agree with the UK system and don't the US one, but gas here is about $7 a gallon, about 70% of that is tax, pure tax.

Thus the more fuel you use the more you pay, all other variables excluded... now I'm not saying those prices are justified, but clearly if you drive a V8 SUV you're going to pay your fair share. If you drive a city car you pay a lot less... that's pretty equitable in my book. We are now in times that don't mandate 30mpg 20 mpg or whatever, you can get a cheap 60mpg capable car if that's your perogative.

There's the solution, fund lost fuel revenue by taxing gas guzzlers... simple. Europe does that, and has done that for 25 years.


Agreed 1000%, our county is unwilling to raise its sales tax, the state is unwilling to raise its gas tax, the road crews are unwilling to actually repair the roads that need repair correctly so we have a perfect storm of BS.

I would have ZERO issue with the gas tax being raised 10-20% to support the county crews, that way EVERYONE both people who live here and not get to help pay.

Too bad we don't have common sense here.

phb10186
Posts: 317
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Re: Annual Fees to Compensate for Gas Taxes in Some States

Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:32 pm

rmay635703 wrote:
phb10186 wrote:This entire thing reads like a page out of the idiots guide to governance and policy.

Not that agree with the UK system and don't the US one, but gas here is about $7 a gallon, about 70% of that is tax, pure tax.

Thus the more fuel you use the more you pay, all other variables excluded... now I'm not saying those prices are justified, but clearly if you drive a V8 SUV you're going to pay your fair share. If you drive a city car you pay a lot less... that's pretty equitable in my book. We are now in times that don't mandate 30mpg 20 mpg or whatever, you can get a cheap 60mpg capable car if that's your perogative.

There's the solution, fund lost fuel revenue by taxing gas guzzlers... simple. Europe does that, and has done that for 25 years.


Agreed 1000%, our county is unwilling to raise its sales tax, the state is unwilling to raise its gas tax, the road crews are unwilling to actually repair the roads that need repair correctly so we have a perfect storm of BS.



I would have ZERO issue with the gas tax being raised 10-20% to support the county crews, that way EVERYONE both people who live here and not get to help pay.

Too bad we don't have common sense here.



Well the 'Vehicle Excise Duty' (road tax) as it is called was meant to pay for road improvement directly... that stopped a long time ago and now just goes as an income stream for the treasury to fund...hmm...

- Bankers who get it wrong
- Brexit
- Spy agencies
- Nuclear power stations built by the Chinese
- The Queen
... and it goes on.

Some of it does go on roads, but essentially big infrastructure is worse than it was, and the roads are worse than they were - but they cant get EV users to cough up, as it would rubbish their car tax structure - so it's safe until they introduce something like road use pay per mile - which was talked about in the 90s. I remember driving through PA to MD a few years back and the PA roads were terrible, and there was brand new tarmac from the state line in Maryland all the way in - they had good roads there... must have been I-83.

The thing is, you can still have a gas guzzler, the system would just guide you to the decision that for daily use a small car makes more sense - use the gas guzzler on the weekends for fun if you have to have that sort of thing.

You would probably need fuel at $6 a gallon for that structure to work, and in the US it would be political suicide - much the same way as the gun control lobby always win (pistols are illegal in the UK - blanket ban, rifles are VERY heavily controlled, shotguns tend to be for farmers to shoot stuff with - not sure what they shoot as I live in the city - foxes and badgers probably). It took one mass shooting in Scotland in the early 90s to result in that policy change.

The 'right' thing to politically is very seldomly the 'right thing to do' - there has to be an appetite to make unpopular decisions - and we tend to be OK at stomaching that actually. I dont know if that's a British government quality, or a population quality/ impediment. There is certainly a tendency to adopt a more US style approach these days, but you do have to look at the long term sometimes, not just the political term.

If there are 2 things I know for sure here: free healthcare isnt going to stop, and taxes will remain high to pay for it, especially oil-based energy.

If you look at countries that have popularised electric motoring, they have done it with financial saving incentives, not eco tactics; that's the only way to change behaviors, by rewarding them with a money treat.

To contemplate surcharging EV and low emission vehicles a tiny amount of say $100 a year does 2 things. 1, it shows complete lack of foresight, and therefore incompetence, and 2, it proves regressive policy making is the status quo - which is also highly incompetent.

It should effectively be illegal to do that, as it would mandate the use of non-renewable resources (doubt it would sustain a legal challenge) - again that's a highly ignorant view of the world.

There is another post about crowd-funded bulk Leaf purchases - better off crowd-funding a federal government legal challenge I would assume.
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2010 Insight ES-T 64K
2009 RX400h 4WD - 86K
2001 Accord Type-V (F23 manual)
2009 Hornet CB600F
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