Service and Maintenance

Hi everyone!

We are a team of students researching the need for an independent service of the EV-Market.

Can't find a qualified independent garage to service your EV and fed up of being limited to the manufacturer for maintenance?

Then please help us with our new market research project:

http://www.ev-care.com

Thanks a lot!

Your survey didn't have the replies I wanted to check in many instances. You won't get a survey which means very much to anyone if you limit the reply choices to only things you want to hear

I have two EV's and over 4 1/2 years I've yet to pay a penny to have either of them serviced. The only times they have ever been to the dealership was to have factory recalls performed - Other than that, my 2 iMiEV's have proven to be as close to 'maintenance-free' and you can get

For something as complicated as a modern EV, I certainly wouldn't trust any independent shop to touch either of my cars - If something fails, it would be the dealer who fixes it. Can you imagine a Tesla owner allowing anyone other than a Tesla certified mechanic to touch his/her car? I feel the same way about my cars

Don

First, good luck with your project. However, I don't think it is really going to happen anytime soon in the EV market. Right now, the market is very small relative to the larger ICE market. It's even hard (and expensive) for branded dealers to sell and service their own EV's. You have landed on a forum for the I-MiEV which is one of the lowest produced "mainstream" EV's out there in the U.S. Any parts related to or connected to the High Voltage battery are non-existent or unavailable outside of the dealer itself. Nothing inside the pack is serviceable by someone outside of the dealer and the dealer is only allowed to exchange the pack, not service it. Much of the test equipment, service tools and parts inventory are all different for the EV which is an expense for the dealer. As far as test equipment is concerned, modern cars rely on computer equipment to diagnose and identify problems within the vehicle. These tools need identifiers called "PID's" to be written into their software to search for a data point or a DTC (diagnostic trouble code). Most aftermarket tools do not include the PID's necessary to service EV's or other alternative fuel vehicles like propane or CNG even if it was supplied by the manufacturer. Manufacturer specific equipment, even if you could buy it, is expensive. In the case of the I-MiEV, unless it is some poor performing Chinese clone, you don't even want to ask. Hint--it's more than half the price of the car. The drive systems are unique to the EV and not shared with other cars on the same platform so training of technicians is expensive and time consuming for the dealer---many have only one tech to meet qualifications to sell the vehicle, others don't even sell the EV's in their manufacturers lineup unless forced to do it. The sales end, and the time a salesman spends selling an EV is another separate issue that is cross related to your question but is not part of it. To make matters even worse, some EV's are "compliance vehicles" and are sold only in limited markets. Although these vehicles may be found in concentrated areas (like parts of California) there would be little or no need or requirement to service them outside of their sales area. The final problem are EV's sold and marketed without a dealer base. Tesla is the flagship in this area. You may own the car but you cannot service it unless you are a Tesla certified shop and that generally relates to body work only. There are no dealers, therefore no parts or service information available. If it was, as it is in Massachusetts by law, it still serves no purpose as you cannot get parts.

In my opinion, independent shops are going to be left by the wayside. Even in the ICE market, which is huge, the electronics and computer integration within the vehicle make it almost impossible for an independent shop to operate without manufacturer support which is contrary to their business model. Right now, the EV customer is "captured" by the manufacturer/dealer and only has a limited choice for outside repair. Many of the traditional independent shops mainstream service business is going away. Remember muffler shops on every corner? When I was younger, you would slap one of those puppies on every couple of years. Cut the old one off and put on a new Golden Midas. Now, most exhaust systems last the life of the vehicle. Shocks, transmissions, brakes all last longer. Even the undercoating business is suffering as corrosion issues are addressed by the manufacturer (the I-MiEV might be an exception " Heck, even the simplest things like lube, oil and filter don't happen with an Electric. As the car ages and starts needing these things, the costs rise to the point that it isn't economically possible to repair it--so it gets recycled. Or, the owner takes matters into his own hands and repairs it himself hence the number of auto parts superstores that dot the landscape catering to home based mechanics not repair shops. That to will die off (again my opinion only) as the younger generation who never learned how to work on anything, or know how things work, becomes the dominate group in society driving vehicles. As the older generation like myself dies off, the younger generation will treat cars only as a bare necessity and will shun owning, driving, or maintaining a vehicle. It will be an appliance to them, nothing more nothing less, and when the new gotta have it model comes out, the old one will be disposed of like last years I-Phone.

Sorry to sound so bleak about the future of independent shops but I don't see much future for them in general let alone for something as specific as an EV or for that matter anything remotely different from a standard ICE powered vehicle. Maybe you should concentrate on how to save what business the independent shops have and what is threatening their existence. Expanding their services into low volume vehicle service will cripple them further, not add a profit center. This will be the problem for independents even if EV become mainstream which I believe they will. For many, many years they will not dominate the market but as they make inroads against the traditional ICE market, the issues outlined above will still haunt the independent shops.

Don said:

For something as complicated as a modern EV, I certainly wouldn't trust any independent shop to touch either of my cars - If something fails, it would be the dealer who fixes it.

Click to expand...

I really disagree. Certainly, I wouldn't want to take my car to the average independent mechanic, but the average dealer isn't much better. Most of them range from skepticism to outright hostility towards EVs, even the ones they sell, and they don't understand them. I'd prefer a place like Mac's Service Center, if it were more convenient, where they make supporting EVs a selling point.

Tesla is in a whole different category, since EVs are their only business, and the dealers' interests aren't at odds with the manufacturer's.

As has been said a hundred times over, wouldn't it be fantastic if all EVs had a common battery standard that could be swapped out by anyone or the independent shop.

Not only could you keep cars on the road for much longer, the efficiency gains made by not having to replace an entire pack array if any one of the 1000's of parts went wrong, but also allowing car manufacturers to concentrate on the stuff they do best, and let the battery people do what they do best.

You could rent or buy, insure or not and whatever happened, there would be an entire industry working to keep you supplied with fresh batteries.

If you buy a Toyota, you don't have to fill it with Toyota fuel.

The main problem with EVs currently is a small industry which is dependent on fairly new battery technology, scattered disparately throughout the world in general, and lacking the associated parts supply industries to keep things moving.

Do companies like Toyota care about non-authorised parts vendors.... well I think yes and no. When the car is up to 5-6 years old, of course they want you to go to the dealer to have it serviced and repaired. After that, when the car's value is gone - I think they actually like the non-authorised market: The people who run old cars only do it because they want to or cant afford to buy new (mostly the latter probably). What better marketing advertisement for your brand is there than to have more old cars still running around after 10-15 years than all your competitors?

Something of a digression, but the point is the EV market is a long way from this, and not only do customers take something of a leap of faith, but more significantly, the manufacturers haven't really scratched the surface of many issues that have been solved in the ICE market.

So, it's going to take a long time, and the I-MIEV will probably be extinct before any major traction occurs. I may be wrong, but I may not be.

Once warranties are up, to have to throw a car away because the battery died is not only tragic, it's a wholly unacceptable choice for a consumer to make. I believe this is why Mitsubishi are starting to up the warranty to 10 years, as they realise that the car will last that time, but the battery may not.

There's this triangle of acceptability:

1. If my battery fails, I can get it repaired easily and cheaply(ish): Not an issue for ICE as you shove generic fuel in to it.
2. Acceptable range: seems to be about 150 miles or so to most people - we are basically not there yet due to cost: Not an issue for ICE
3. Cost: If you sold an ICE car with unlimited fuel at the point of sale, no one would buy it since it would add 1000's to the price - something you sort of have to do with an EV.

My fear has always been with this car that it will stop working one day, and I will face a huge bill - but until that happens, I am keeping an open mind. I am also keeping an open mind that Mitsubishi may repair beyond the warranty period due to the cost involved - but I have no idea what their spare parts pipeline could be.

So, is there a future for the independent garage for EVs - probably not: the world doesn't work to create economies downstream of corporate profits (unless that would add to the aforementioned) - but it's a romantic idea to think they may all club together and have a single consumable to make it sensible for everyone.

wmcbrine said:

Don said:

For something as complicated as a modern EV, I certainly wouldn't trust any independent shop to touch either of my cars - If something fails, it would be the dealer who fixes it.

Click to expand...

I really disagree. Certainly, I wouldn't want to take my car to the average independent mechanic, but the average dealer isn't much better.

Click to expand...

The dealership has the specific test equipment needed to diagnose their particular brand of EV and for the parts which are not repairable, they have the only source of new parts in the world in their corner. I don't see any independent shop who could even diagnose the problem, let alone source the parts to repair it. As I said, I wouldn't take my car anywhere but to the dealership - In truth, I don't think it *could be properly repaired* anywhere else

Don't get me wrong, I'm no lover of dealership service departments - In 50 years of driving, I've never taken any ICE I've owned to any dealer for either repairs or maintenance. I have a local, independent father/son business working out of a tin shed 1/4 mile from my house and they have done the last 3 or 4 timing belt replacements I've needed to have done. Had a new set of struts installed there too. I bring him the parts needed for whatever I want done and for $25 per hour, he does all the labor . . . . but he'll never see either of my EV's in his shop

Don

phb10186 said:

If you buy a Toyota, you don't have to fill it with Toyota fuel.

Click to expand...

I don't see batteries as equivalent to fuel. Electrons are the fuel. And, I actually have more diversity in my options for sourcing electrons than I do for buying gasoline.

Hey James Smith . . .

Welcome. As with Don, I basically opted out of your survey because it was largely a "one size fits none" list that didn't realistically address the issues at hand I'm encountering. After answering the first question or two (basically declaring what vehicle I own,) I came across scenarios that didn't really fit my situation. For instance, I purchased a used i-MiEV about 8 months ago, which I'm sure was serviced at the dealer by the previous/original leasee (I'd have to do some online research via the Carfax report to determine when, where, how often and for what,) but I have yet to deal with interfacing with an authorized dealer myself. Do I say there that the vehicle has never been serviced? So, I skipped through that question and simply read the rest without checking the boxes. As expected, I found many of those similarly non-applicable to my used EV ownership situation and I didn't click "submit" at the end. In an attempt to go back to help you catalogue specific survey questions I found lacking, I encountered an electronic "You've already taken the survey" roadblock. So, Survey Monkey has me down as completing the questionnaire, even though I really didn't.

Consequently, I would suggest you do what you are doing now: attempt to gather wordy comments from EV owners and let them tell you within their own terms of their real world scenarios, instead of hoping to catalogue fragments of information with a vague detachment of a simple questionnaire. Talk may be cheap, but there is actual value in much of it. Narrowly cast surveys, on the other hand, are typically worthless. Yours, I'm afraid (no offense,) is particularly lacking.

I'll echo a lot of what sais47 has already written in regards to being at the mercy of factory-authorized dealerships servicing our newer electric cars . . . until, of course, all the warranties expire and we're all completely on our own. But OEM EVs are still so new and so few of them have been driven enough distance or for enough years to get to that point. Get back to us in another 5 to 7 years and I'm sure many of us will have stories to tell on that front.

But I'm also not as certain, as sai47 is, that your generation is completely ready to abandon automotive ownership altogether and in favor of being Ubered everywhere without a live human driving. As well, I don't completely buy into the argument that many futurists are currently making in regards to actual ownership of cars falling to the wayside.



I think we'll end up living in society where many of us will still prefer to have our own small affordable EVs (like our cute little present day i-MiEVs) for most of our daily driving needs. I can't imagine a young parent, for instance, struggling to install/extract a child safety seat every time they visit the pediatrician or transport the kid to preschool. There are things that people tend to keep in their cars all the time and the habit of completely cleaning that stuff out before and after every vehicle trip just doesn't seem like a realistic proposition. It would be too much like living out of a different motel room every night for years at a time. But it would be nice to occasionally summon - on demand - a larger vehicle for a night on the town with a larger group of friends, for a longer distance trip out of town or packing up an oversize van with cardboard boxes when it's time to leave the little apartment and move into the new larger digs across town.

My idea for a new EV-oriented business in lieu of an independently-owned service facility? How about a network used car dealerships that sells EVs exclusively? Since many of the 1st generation EVs are now being leased and then returned to the dealership 2 or 3 years later, there tends to be a glut of them right now. But they're currently spread out. An enterprising small used car dealer could find themselves obtaining low mileage used EVs at wholesale costs regionally and have them all available in one or several places at reasonable retail prices. Sales people who have taken the time to educate themselves on what EVs are all about could add to the buying experience at these used EV emporiums. It's only a matter of time before you'll see a used car lot in a larger metro area with nothing but late model Leafs, i-MiEVs and i3s, save for a single odd and older gasoline car outcast being displayed . . . kind of the opposite situation that we now witness.

I really like the idea of a 3rd party EV service center, but due to the nature of EVs (the i-MiEV especially), parts are hard to get and are usually expensive. The sad thing is, no tire shop in my area can get the OEM Dunlop tires, only the dealers can. Tires are the only thing I've gone to the dealer for that wasn't a service visit or recalls.

Cars in general are becoming so that only dealers can work on them. My parents have never taken a car to the dealer before for routine stuff like oil changes, but my Dad has yet to change the oil in their C-Max. Instead, he now takes it to the dealer for maintenance. Even the Cavalier I drove before the i-MiEV had to be partially dismantled to change the oil. Cars are becoming disposable mostly by how they are built.

Hopefully, in 10-20 years when the majority of today's EVs are at end of life, the automobile will have a much smaller role in transportation with more widespread adoption of mass transit, high speed electric rail, cycling, and other transportation technologies. Even our efficient little jellybeans still use a considerable amount of energy to transport one person most of the time (>250 Wh/mile vs. my eBike's 15 Wh/mile). Given that transportation is the #3 polluter (behind electricity production and meat production), there needs to be some radical changes to our infrastructure and the way things are done. EVs are a huge step forward from ICE vehicles, but there are even less damaging solutions available for a lot of people.

With that said, for future maintenance on EVs, the biggest thing I see are folks like me that won't get a new car just because of the battery and instead will opt to have the pack fitted with new cells.

PV1 said:

With that said, for future maintenance on EVs, the biggest thing I see are folks like me that won't get a new car just because of the battery and instead will opt to have the pack fitted with new cells.

Click to expand...

Hopefully by the time we get to that point, someone, somewhere will be re-celling battery packs at a considerable discount

A new pair of OEM batteries for the Segways is about $1800, but there are several places you can buy old cases re-celled with higher amperage batteries for about $1200. The OEM pack uses 92 AA size batteries and the pack is rated at 5.2 AH. The re-celled versions are rated at up to 6.4 AH, which gives you significantly more range . . . . and for 2/3rds the cost. They re-use the OEM BMS and everything is 100% compatible

Don

With Tesla's Gigafactory already partially operational, 18650 cells ought to be a dime a dozen before too much longer. Should be able to pack 60-70 Ah into an LEV50-sized brick for a decent price even today. Since the chemistry is the same, these custom bricks would work with the existing BMS, and would eventually re-calibrate and open up the extra capacity.

Independent battery shops are at least still two years out (who would mess with a battery still under warranty?) for the first EVs to fall out of warranty coverage, and still three years out for the first US i-MiEVs to fall out of warranty that didn't get an extension. A 68 Ah pack built from 1,760 Panasonic 3.4 Ah 18650 cells would cost $7,200 from http://liionwholesale.com using these cells:

http://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/products/panasonic-ncr18650b-battery-genuine-tested-6-8a-3400mah-flat-top-wholesale-lot?variant=1076987260

Compare that to the $12,000-$13,000 price quotes for a new 50 Ah pack from Mitsubishi. Given the size of the LEV50 cells, 24 cells should fit in the same size, maybe more. 24 cells give a total Ah capacity of 81.6 Ah, making the range 100 miles EPA (26 kWh pack). To bring this around to the main topic, an EV service shop may not be worthwhile due to parts availability, but a custom battery shop may work for keeping these older EVs relevant. For those of us that had battery issues, a new pack feels almost as good as a new car.