tonymil
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:50 am
Location: Latham, NY

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:40 am

You have to send your car the signal to preheat within 100m or 300 feet of the car, so you won't be able to preheat until you are back at the station.


MLucas is right, you can program charging ahead of time but not heating/cooling. I knew that yet I still gave you bad info. Senior moment I guess...

Sandage, I agree with you that running the car heater during extended travel time due to bad weather/traffic is a big concern especially with the temperatures and other info you've identified. Ouch. However, I see that the propane heater you linked to works from a flame. If you really are considering a propane heater you should look at the catalytic type. Take a look at this study:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia05/os/co03.pdf

Let us know what you decide.

Tony

sandange
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 am
Location: Quebec, Canada
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:06 pm



Thanks for the link Tony
I will have to look it over and carefully review it.
I would definitely have a rear window open a crack no matter which type I might use.
This report favors the catalytic propane heaters .
I was looking at a Coleman with a fan earlier

Still trying to sort out the remote control and its limitations.
At first I thought when you program the charging time
(Delay to start) next (duration of charge) and then set (pre-cool or heat) that it would (Pre-cool or heat) in the last half hour of the charging time set. But had no time to test anything.

We are located in the Lauretian Mountains, (retirement home in Ski Country) 1 hour North of Montreal, Quebec.

Most of our family is located in the city 65-80 km (41-50 miles) one way. We like to visit at least once a week -
In winter less frequent -

This might be just beyond the max range for 1 charge each way depending on weather.
I think we will be testing the Mievs limits this winter.
Tesla Model 3 SR+, 2019
Previous EVs
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
200,000 km , 124.000 miles.
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:26 am
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:45 am

Get yourself a heated vest like motorcyclists wear!
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

sandange
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 am
Location: Quebec, Canada
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:19 pm

What about the rest of the passengers?

LOL - Just my weird sense of humor

I'm hoping to find an alternative choice to make the passenger cabin comfortable, defrost the windows, and spare the battery To extent the range.
Tesla Model 3 SR+, 2019
Previous EVs
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
200,000 km , 124.000 miles.
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:26 am
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:58 pm

Right, we need quick electric defrosters in EV -- they have made these in the past. Ford and others have put very thin (a few molecules thick) of gold on the windshield and this cleared the windshield in a few seconds. You only could see the gold from certain angles outside the car. Heated seats or heated vests that heat people's bodies directly would be far more energy efficient. Maybe this could be even less power than the best A/C systems?
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

Don
Site Moderator
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:46 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:Heated seats or heated vests that heat people's bodies directly would be far more energy efficient. Maybe this could be even less power than the best A/C systems?
No question there - The i heater draws 5,000 watts max, the A/C is 4,500 watts and the typical motorcycle heated vest is only 100 watts or less. You can also buy 12 volt lap blankets very cheaply

Neil's idea is a good one - You can buy the vests for $100 to $150 and using those wouldn't affect the car's range hardly at all. You might still have to minimally run the heater in the defrost mode to keep the windows clear, but even that would be probably 90% more energy efficient than trying to heat the cabin with it

For a one hour trip, preheating the car, wearing a vest plugged into the car's 12 volt system and using the heater minimally should allow you to make a 50 mile trip I would think. This sounds safer to me than anything burning in the passenger compartment

FWIW, GM once manufactured a car which used a gasoline powered heater - It was mounted in the trunk so no fumes or exhaust entered the passenger compartment and it provided TONS of heat . . . . it would literally run you out of the car when set on high, no matter how cold it was outside

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

sandange
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 am
Location: Quebec, Canada
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:59 am



Ok Had a chance to look at this a little closer.
with my limited knowledge of these matters - Here is what I can decipher from all this

They tested 2 types Infrared & Catalytic propane heaters
Concerns were about co2, oxygen, and hydrocarbon safety levels

Venting is an important factor especially over longer periods of time 4-6 hours
This is mostly the case for concerns for closed in small cabins, tents, campers, fishing shacks etc
in extended situations especially when sleeping

They praise the oxygen depletion Shut off sensor as a safety feature

If anyone with a more scientific mind would like to give their review of this report please do comment

My Conclusion
The Miev is not the type of vehicle for driving for more than 1 - 2 hours at a time with out opening a window or door once - this would do a significant cabin air exchange.
If I were to use one of these heaters I would certainly leave a rear window open a crack for venting purposes


I'll be exploring this further
Looking at units with heat level adjustments and oxygen depletion safety shut offs

Thanks for your suggestions
I'm not a fan of getting dressed with or offering friends or family members an electric vest/blanket, to drive them around in the winter.
I'm sure it can would work but looking for another solution.
Last edited by sandange on Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tesla Model 3 SR+, 2019
Previous EVs
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
200,000 km , 124.000 miles.
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

sandange
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 am
Location: Quebec, Canada
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:32 am

The question about the Hydro Quebec "Circuit Electrique" Charge stations -
I should of made clearer as.....

If I had swiped my pay card & were charging,
Shortly after, there was a power failure for 5 seconds or more.- but now I've left to go to work.

When the power returns, would it continue charging or
would the charger think the session was over and require another swipe.

I've sent an email to them regarding this, and hope to get an answer soon.


Just to follow up I got an answer back from them...
Not the Answer I wanted to hear

If there is power failure while connected to their charger
and the power comes back on

The machine will assume the charging session is over and will not resume charging

You would have to swipe your card again to resume..

They did suggest that, should this happen, I call them and they would credit me back the charging fee of $2.50


http://s211.photobucket.com/user/Sandange/slideshow/miev/EV%20Propane%20heater

On the subject of a heater
I picked up a 3,000 btu ,propane, catalytic, Coleman unit that has a fan incorporated into the housing.
I'll be trying it out when things cool off and share what I find
Last edited by sandange on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tesla Model 3 SR+, 2019
Previous EVs
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
200,000 km , 124.000 miles.
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

jray3
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:37 am

The unvented heaters will add a lot of water vapor to the cabin, which may fog the windows, etc. Aircooled Volkswagens used Webasto-type gasoline-fueled heaters with external exhaust. Those are still made, but spendy. I could easily see using a ceramic electric Heater or a floor mat/ chair mat electric heater on a timer and separate plug to preheat the cabin. Adding thermal mass might help in very limited conditions (just pull the plug on your giant hot water bottle to drain it after it cools off, creating an ice rink in the driveway). ;-)
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 105,400 miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

DonDakin
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:12 pm

Hello There,

This is an interesting thread. I also live in Montreal and I wonder how well the Imiev will deal with really cold weather.

From reading the thread it looks like the car can only be practically used for about 25 km in very cold weather with the heater running.
I say this because it looks like there is a 50% capacity drop in the battery at that temp so that brings the battery down to 8 KWH. The heater on full would draw 5 KW so about 1.6 KWH for a 20 minute drive. That leaves about 8Kwh - 2*1.6Kwh or 4.6Kwh for driving at 175 wh per Km (winter driving) or about 26 km round trip.

Sound reasonable ?


I say this because when it's really cold like -25 you have to warm the cabin. I tried last winter to use a seat heater in my ice car to simulate the 10 km drive home from work with only the seat heater and it's not possible. After about 5 minutes of no cabin heat and only seat heat it becomes unbearable. Mind you I was not dressed in my best winter gear but I also think it's crazy to get completely dressed up is arctic survival gear to get in a $35,000 car to drive home 10Km from work.

So for a Montreal winter it looks like the car needs to be indoors overnight in order to be usable in the really cold parts of winter.

I think 15km commutes to work would be fine and the battery temp would probably not cool down too much during the commute. However if it's not plugged in at work and sits for 8-10 hours at -25 deg C I guess it would cool to ambient and might not make it back home in the evening.

If it was plugged in at work then the battery heater should keep the battery at -20 deg C This seems to be just so that it can be charged and to keep the battery at a temperature that would not harm the battery.

So it looks to me like on really cold days you need to have the car plugged in all time that it is outside.

It was interesting to read that at -30 deg it looks like the battery warming gives up and stops. Shouldn't the cars sound an alarm that says "park me inside in a heated garage or i'll die...." in that case ?

Also another question come to mind. If the capacity of the battery is about 50% at -20 deg then does it take half the time to charge it ?

Don.....

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