Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:24 am

A quote from the article above (sorry for my rapid and poor translation):
One of the first electric car users in Orava county, Rein Kraak, made a statement, that the car is able to drive at -29.5 degrees Celsius up to 76 km and has no problems with starting in frosty conditions.

In fact, he made only a 4 kilometer trip, and the range was estimated only according to the cars guess-o-meter, which showed remaining range at the beginning of the journey as 80 km and as 76 km at the end. There is no information on whether the car heater was turned on or not and so on. But a positive image was created: "The electric car drives well at the minus 30 degrees C".

A day later, the same person told in national broadcasting, that his car could drive about 80 km at -28 degrees. And there's no concern about starting a car in the frost! Just toes will freeze, as you drive!

At the same time, however, newspaper Tartu Postimees wrote that two electric cars had to be towed to the Mitsubishi retailer to warm up the batteries! It turned out that the cars have batteries without heating, and if they are not constantly hanging from the wire, then after quite a short standing in the frost, they will not start anymore. Which information is correct?

Whatcar.ee editorial seeked for answers from a familiar social officer, who testified that he did not believe in claims of the car user from the Orava county: "Cold affects the range very much. When there are warmer days, a fully-charged battery can run up to 70 km , then down to minus 20 degrees in just 40 to 50 km", said the social worker, who drives his iMiev mostly in the city. On the road it would take more energy and mileage probably would be even more scarce.

"I think at cold temperatures, however, the worst problem is that the power steering stops working, " said social worker, who was still not completely certain whether this was an universal problem, or just his cars specific trouble .

But getting the car warm is a completely separate issue. "It warms up still very slow. Such luxury like you start a car and then sliding the warmers slider up to the end (like in regular car), would mean that the warming would half empty the batteries. Just today I finished an experiment: I started the heater in the standing car and let it go. The battery was 80% full at the beginning, but after an hour, it was completely empty. "

There are also problem with charging, because social workers have usually no opportunity to park the car into the warm and safe garage. On the courtyard, there are fears that costly five meter charging cable can be stolen, if left over night unattended. Also, no one asked him to keep a journal about how many kilometers at which temperatures can drive , etc. .

Don
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:58 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:It turned out that the cars have batteries without heating, and if they are not constantly hanging from the wire, then after quite a short standing in the frost, they will not start anymore. Which information is correct?
iMiEV's which came with the cold weather package do have a battery warmer, but as you say, it needs to be plugged in for this to function. I don't know if I would choose any EV if I lived where you regularly have -30C temps and I did not have a garage to keep it in

If the car 'will not start' I would expect it's more likely a problem with the 12 volt auxiliary battery, as that's what gets it up and running. I cannot imagine that the 330 volt lithium traction battery would not move the car because it's too cold, but if the 'car would not start' indeed it wouldn't move either
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jaraczs
Posts: 114
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Location: Somerset, NJ

Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:14 pm

FiddlerJohn wrote:The roof and windows have a lot of heat escaping, but the doors look cool.


How about EnerLogic window film? Checkout the video:
http://www.enerlogicfilm.com/en/HowDoesItWork.aspx

It has the ability to reflect heat away in Summer and reflect it back in Winter. It is particularly effective for single pane windows.
Stan

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:45 am

Is there any other experiences with power steering not functioning in frosty condition?

JoeS
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:33 am

Don wrote:If you're looking for a simple way to add heat and extend the car's range in the winter and you want to do it electrically, why not keep it simple . . . . really simple?
Buy 40 of the Headway 38120S 10 amp screw tab LiFePo4 cells (about $17.50 each) connect them in series for a 128 volt auxiliary battery pack (1.28KW) and then use them to run a standard household ceramic 10 amp 120 volt heater? If you replaced the fan motor in the heater with a DC motor, you wouldn't even need an inverter. Attach a voltmeter to monitor the pack and shut off the heater when the voltage drops to 90V (2.25 volts per cell) so you don't harm your battery pack
Don, funny you should have mentioned this, as that is exactly what I have but more powerful: two 4P8S Headway (LiFePO4) packs made up of 12Ah cells. Total capacity is 64*12Ah*3.33v =~2.5kWh. I use this 48V (nominal) system to power my electric outboard or 48v electric bicycle or my 48v-->120vac 2500W inverter or 24v electric scooter. I load-tested this system using... wait for it ... an electric heater! Worked like a charm. To greatly reduce cost, a couple of 12v Group 31 (~100Ah) batteries and a 1000W 12v-->120vac inverter and a 600W ceramic heater should be good enough for most commutes in the iMiEV, and certainly cost less and be less-complicated than a Webasto or Eberspächer (Espar) heater.

Besides, isn't there something immoral about consuming fossil fuels in an electric car? :mrgreen:

I heated my 10m catamaran using a 600W electric heater in each hull when cruising southeast Alaska and was toasty. Even with all the conductive and radiated losses of our almost un-insulated iMiEV, I would expect a 600W heater sitting on the passenger's side aimed at the footwell to at least keep toes from turning blue ... but, being in California, what do I know about seriously-cold weather? :roll:

Off-topic and maybe a candidate for a new thread: when I used my Headway packs to run the 48v-->120vac inverter, it charged the iMiEV just fine for the ~10 minutes I tried it. When I tried the same thing using a 48v-->240vac 2500W inverter feeding the EVSEUpgraded EVSE set to 6A, the $200 eBay inverter blew up! :cry: Hmm, as I write this, I have to wonder if I remembered to reprogram the EVSE to 6A? :roll:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
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MLucas
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:29 am

Don wrote:
Kuuuurija wrote:It turned out that the cars have batteries without heating, and if they are not constantly hanging from the wire, then after quite a short standing in the frost, they will not start anymore. Which information is correct?
iMiEV's which came with the cold weather package do have a battery warmer, but as you say, it needs to be plugged in for this to function. I don't know if I would choose any EV if I lived where you regularly have -30C temps and I did not have a garage to keep it in

If the car 'will not start' I would expect it's more likely a problem with the 12 volt auxiliary battery, as that's what gets it up and running. I cannot imagine that the 330 volt lithium traction battery would not move the car because it's too cold, but if the 'car would not start' indeed it wouldn't move either


A few of us developed a Cold Weather Chart last winter. The i-MiEV will not charge or start below -30c/-22F. The Battery Warmer only operates between -15c/-30c.

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=713

Image

Like Dylan...I went electric.

  • Purchased: June 29th, 2012
  • Mileage on June 29th, 2013 - 25,431 km / 15,802 miles
  • Mileage on June 29th, 2014 - 51,286 km / 32,616 miles

List of Oil Spills: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

Kuuuurija
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:16 pm

Thank you, MLucas! I missed the thread completely! This scheme is very helpful!

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:20 pm

How many times one has to charge his/her Leaf to drive 2x185 km (from Tallinn to Tartu and back) at -10...-15 degrees Celsius? See the video: http://www.tv3play.ee/play/301364/
It takes 12 hours of charging and driving (average speed is ~30 km/h), and there are some distances, where the cabin heating has to be turned off to reach the next charger! An average range per charging is below 80 km, and yes, this is Leaf, not iMiev!
What about the cost? 8 chargings discharge from your pocket 40 €. This makes 10.81 € per 100 km.
For 40 € you can buy 30 litres of gasoline here.

jray3
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:29 pm

So since Mitsu is not using the stock battery heater for pack capacity optimization, only 'freeze protection' (it doesn't come on until 5 degrees F!), there has been interest in a supplemental pack heater.
Stick-on heat pads designed for RV water tanks may be an option. They're available in a number of different sizes, power levels, and temperature settings (such as on at 40F, off at 65F).
http://www.dyersonline.com/rv-plumbing/ ... tml?cat=69
Some can even be switched between 120 VAC and 12VDC, though it would be hard to justify pulling amps from the battery to heat the battery!

It ain't cheap, but could make a difference in colder climes, with less risk of unintended consequences from messing with the in-car circuits! It also appears that there is room to add insulation to the smooth tray that sits under the battery (which is very noisy on a gravel road), and there may be clearance to place the heat pads between the battery and bottom tray.
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1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
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NeilBlanchard
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Re: Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:56 pm

If you use the heater and/or the defroster, then your range will be less than in warm weather. Sometimes a lot less using both the heater and the defroster can use as much energy as moving the car.
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

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