Phximiev
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Comparative Energy Efficiency

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:18 pm

Saw this comparison and couldn't believe that the iMiev was that much less efficient than the Ioniq, but then who know?

Any thoughts?

http://myioniq.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 65f4#p1525
2012 iMIEV ES
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MalcolmReynolds
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:03 am

The Ioniq appears to be knocking it out of the park. Proving you don't need a monster battery to get good daily range. This car appears to be schooling the entire EV market.

Honestly what I am shocked by is how inefficient the i-Miev is considering how light it is. It is kind of shocking that Mitsubishi has fallen that far behind. With such a light weight car, the i-Miev should be schooling the market on efficiency. So Mitsubishi needs to go back and do their homework here.

It appears the Ioniq is going to really propel the EV market. It should mean lower costs and greater real world daily range. Overall it appears to be very impressive.

Don
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:51 am

MalcolmReynolds wrote:Honestly what I am shocked by is how inefficient the i-Miev is considering how light it is. It is kind of shocking that Mitsubishi has fallen that far behind. With such a light weight car, the i-Miev should be schooling the market on efficiency. So Mitsubishi needs to go back and do their homework here.
To be fair, the iMiEV is all 2007 technology and to save money, the adapted it to an existing platform, rather than designing a whole new car around it from scratch, so they haven't 'fallen far behind' in any way - Quite the contrary, when it first came out, it was the leader of the pack in most areas . . . . but now it's 10 years old. It would be surprising (to me anyway) if anything designed and built today didn't surpass it

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
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MalcolmReynolds
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:41 am

Agreed, i-Miev is still based on real first gen technology. I am just surprised that it isn't closer in efficiency given it's weight advantage. Clearly it is time for them to refresh the car. The IONIQ appears to be showing the market what is possible and that maybe you don't need 60kwh battery packs to get real usable range. If you can get the efficiency from the car then the smaller pack is an advantage for weight, and charge times.

JoeS
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:18 am

When the i-MiEV was introduced in the US in late 2011, it was the most energy-efficient production car ever (at least in North America), bar none (something Consumer Reports failed to mention in their scathing review). [Note: please prove me wrong on this statement, if you can].

Subsequent cars' efficiency numbers had me scratching my head, but I let it go. No question, with a Cd of 0.35 and a significant cross-section area, our aerodynamics affects even low speed performance. Combine that with lower quiescent losses and increased efficiency in more-modern electronics and probably more-efficient motors, it's no wonder that we're a bit outclassed after ten years on the market.

Wow, I just looked it up: Hyundai Ioniq Cd = 0.24 :shock:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
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Don
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:35 am

MalcolmReynolds wrote:If you can get the efficiency from the car then the smaller pack is an advantage for weight, and charge times.
Granted that's true . . . . and as more and more consumers learn what they actually need and quit comparing BEV's to cars which hold 400 miles worth of fuel, we'll see the market for small EV's really begin to take off. Every pound of battery you put in an EV, the less efficient the car will be, largely because you'll be hauling around extra battery power you will very seldom use. When the iMiEV was first introduced, I'll bet 90% of ICE drivers looked at any BEV with 'only' 65 miles of range as a pretty useless vehicle. But, as most anyone here will tell you, 65 miles will serve at least 80% of the average drivers daily needs, or more like 95% for some of us

If you really need an EV with 100 or 150 or 200 miles of range, by all means go out and buy one, but for the average person, that's way more than they need . . . . they just don't know that . . . . yet

It would be nice if we had a Cd of .25 instead of .35 and granted, that would definitely improve range, but it would also reduce the usability of the vehicle. We can haul 4 'real sized' adults and most of them would say this is the easiest car to get into and out of they've ever ridden in, plus we can put the seats down and haul really outsized cargo. Should we give most of that up for another 15 or 20 miles of range?? We wouldn't gain that much anyway - I would say no - I would vote to keep my cars just as they are because they better serve MY needs than a sleeker, less practical for everyday use vehicle

Mitsu is never going to 'redesign' the car - They didn't sell well enough the first time around and I'm sure they've tired of losing money on the platform

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
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PV1
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:51 pm

Don wrote:Mitsu is never going to 'redesign' the car - They didn't sell well enough the first time around and I'm sure they've tired of losing money on the platform

Don

Nope. They've given up on it in the US. The I-MiEV is no longer listed on the US website.
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phb10186
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:58 pm

JoeS wrote:When the i-MiEV was introduced in the US in late 2011, it was the most energy-efficient production car ever (at least in North America), bar none (something Consumer Reports failed to mention in their scathing review). [Note: please prove me wrong on this statement, if you can].

Subsequent cars' efficiency numbers had me scratching my head, but I let it go. No question, with a Cd of 0.35 and a significant cross-section area, our aerodynamics affects even low speed performance. Combine that with lower quiescent losses and increased efficiency in more-modern electronics and probably more-efficient motors, it's no wonder that we're a bit outclassed after ten years on the market.

Wow, I just looked it up: Hyundai Ioniq Cd = 0.24 :shock:


Not to mention that you would expect anything a few years old to be slightly less efficient than when it was new too. in 2010 I still had a Blackberry Curve, the Ionic is a Galaxy S8.
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MalcolmReynolds
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:13 pm

It really is too bad that Mitsubishi is giving up in the US market. The i-Miev has an advantage that the other manufacturers are spending a fortune trying to accomplish which is to reduce the weight of the car. Look at the money BMW is spending on carbon fiber and polymer to try and get the weight down. The i-Miev still spanks the i3 in weight and that is a big deal.

Clearly Hyundai has figured out how to get the most out of regen, and power use. It looks like people are getting a real world 120 miles from the car so that really is setting a new bar for the EV market in what would be a fairly conservative sized battery given the direction the market is heading. The battery pack in the Ioniq is 28kwh.

That .24cd isn't hurting things either. If anything the Ioniq just proves what can be done at a more reasonable price point than a Tesla. I completely agree with Don that form factor is a big deal so if you put that same power consumption and capability in a car like the i-Miev you would probably still see some pretty impressive range and ability since the i-Miev is so light. Sure it trades off some of the aero, but gets some back in the amount of weight it is hauling around. The world focuses on form over function much of the time.

If anything the Ioniq makes me hopeful that we might see more affordable EV's with real usable range and capability going forward. In a world that currently thinks an affordable EV is $30-35k frankly it makes me think I need to buy a horse or a really large dog so I can afford to get around... Or just maybe a nice lightly used i-Miev... :D

Don
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Re: Comparative Energy Efficiency

Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:50 pm

MalcolmReynolds wrote:If anything the Ioniq makes me hopeful that we might see more affordable EV's with real usable range and capability going forward.
IMO, 65 miles *is* a 'real usable range' as it does at least 90 or 95% of what we need a vehicle to do - I suspect we'll still own an ICE for the forseeable future for our long range travel needs (currently a Ford Transit Connect) but it may only get started once a month or so . . . . until we head out on an Interstate trip. What we spend on gasoline has really dried up since we bought these cars

I personally would never spend $30K for a new BEV just to get 100 or 150 miles of range that I would seldom use . . . . and I'd be carrying that bigger battery around with me largely unused all the time - Not when a very nice, low miles used iMiEV can be had for 1/4 that amount

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

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