ChrisEV
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm
Location: GTA, Canada

Re: EV prices in the next 3 years.

Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:49 am

Somewhat related but where will public EV charging be in the next 3 years?

It’s about $2/hour for L2 and around $15 for L3 here(more in winter due to slow charging). Not worth it for the MIEV unless you’re desperate. I’m even hearing that some of the L3 50kW stations are being throttled to 25-30, although I wonder if it’s just the Canadian winter slowing the charge.

As EV cars get more popular are these ridiculous prices going to go up even more? I imagine free public charging will slowly disappear.

Gas stations will probably slowly offer EV charging in addition to fuel, I’ve seen a few here already.
2012 i-MIEV SE Premium

JoeS
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Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:53 am

ChrisEV wrote:Somewhat related but where will public EV charging be in the next 3 years?

It’s about $2/hour for L2 and around $15 for L3 here(more in winter due to slow charging). Not worth it for the MIEV unless you’re desperate. I’m even hearing that some of the L3 50kW stations are being throttled to 25-30, although I wonder if it’s just the Canadian winter slowing the charge.

As EV cars get more popular are these ridiculous prices going to go up even more? I imagine free public charging will slowly disappear.

Gas stations will probably slowly offer EV charging in addition to fuel, I’ve seen a few here already.

ChrisEV, this was such an appropriate question that I thought I'd make it a separate topic. Here are a few of my thoughts -

Interesting dilemma. Need to separate DCQC from public L2, and networked L2 from stand-alone L2.

Unsubsidized, a back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that a DCQC charging station is not a good financial investment. nrg was supposedly losing money on EVgo and finally broke it off and it's now operated as a stand-alone entity. User displeasure with EVgo's exorbitant (to the user) price structure is evident, for example:
http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5834
My comment: I avoid EVgo whenever possible, but appreciate their presence for the few times I really need to charge. Much more discussion needed.

Allied to the above, for its new cars (once the annual free usage is used up) Tesla's costs for supercharging are, for example, $0.20/kWh in California and $0.12/kWh in Oregon.
https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
My comment: love my old Tesla S grandfathered in with free supercharging - it's a terrific uninhibitor to taking long trips at the drop of a hat.

Networked L2 (e.g., ChargePoint). Examples are shopping centers which subsidize the installation and pay for the monthly energy and connectivity costs. I don't know how maintenance costs are handled. Costs are set by the facility and vary from free to either $/kWhr or $/hour (usually in states where charging by the kWhr is still illegal).
My comment: I have found most of these costs reasonable.

Not-networked L2, usually put in and paid for by local establishments and usually at no cost to the user. I've seen quite a few at hotels/motels in our travels across the country.
My comment: free is nice, but subject to abuse. In particular, I resent PHEVs hogging such spots in metropolitan areas - has happened all-too-often when I needed to charge my i-MiEV. I feel that a nominal fee is appropriate in most public-use cases, whereas it's a nice freebie for patrons of a hotel or restaurant - let's face it, those establishments will not even notice a change in their electric bill resulting from such charging stations.

With the evolution to large-capacity battery packs, I think that local charging will primarily serve multi-unit dwellers who have no other alternatives; otherwise, the convenience and low cost of charging a home makes it unnecessary to charge in town.

Long distance is another issue. As I write this I've been doing what-if scenarios with my brother-in-law in Oregon who just bought a BoltEV and wants to drive down to California and visit family. The slow charging rate (often well under 25kW) and high charging cost of presently-installed SAE/CCS DCQC is so inferior to Tesla's existing supercharging network that it just wants to make one cry. Until that world evolves to > 100kW charging rates, those cars will be considered good intermediate-distance candidates but not ICE (or Tesla) competition for long trips.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
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jray3
Posts: 1479
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Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:56 am

Indeed, the high NRG fees have made them my last resort. Seattle City Light is going to deploy a number of DCFC to fill the 'donut hole' left in 2012 by the Blink bankruptcy and never fixed. However, they announced that pricing would be a fixed per-session fee in the neighborhood of $11! In response, Seattle EV Association passed the following resolution in November, and we are now told that the pricing plan is 'a work in process' and likely to change. The Outlander PHEV having DCFC for only a 12 kWh battery only exacerbates this situation. I asked the utility if they wanted to be known for charging the same price to deliver 12 kWh as for 100 kWh, and that the high end scenario (Tesla P100) is only going to grow.

SEATTLE Electric Vehicle Association finds that fixed price DC Fast Charging sessions are both inequitable and counterproductive to the goal of providing a reliable fast charging infrastructure, inasmuch as fixed price sessions make no allowance for the wide disparities in both battery size and the state of charge that customers arrive with. Fixed price fast charging sessions also incentivize users to remain connected for the maximum time to achieve a full charge, which creates wait times for other users, decreases the number of customers served, and reduces the total miles of charging delivered per station. Therefore, SEVA calls upon Seattle City Light to amend their announced policy and implement a time -based fee structure. In DC Fast Charging, the billing scheme must encourage Fast Charging, as time spent charging is the most valuable component of a Fast Charging session.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 87,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: EV prices in the next 3 years.

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:38 pm

ChrisEV wrote:It’s about $2/hour for L2 and around $15 for L3 here(more in winter due to slow charging). Not worth it for the MIEV unless you’re desperate
As someone who has never paid a nickel to recharge anywhere in the nearly 6 years we've been EV driving, my opinion may not mean much :lol:

I think for the foreseeable future, it's going to be most practical to buy a car which will do what you need it to do recharging at home 95% of the time. If your daily commute is more than the iMiEV can do and you can't recharge for a reasonable fee at work, you probably need a car with a longer range. You'll always have the free L2 stations associated with a business which wants to lure you as a customer but if you're not shopping for at least an hour or two, L2 charging isn't that practical

I doubt DCQC is ever going to get to be 'reasonably' priced - The equipment is just too expensive and I'm sure their power bills reflect some huge 'surge' charges - They have to make a profit and with vandalism and maintenance, they'll never make a profit charging only 4X or 5X what the electricity costs. To my mind, DCQC will always be either 'emergency' or I'm taking a long trip and to heck with what it costs

Tesla is a whole 'nother matter though - If I wanted to drive long distances in an EV (and it would be nice) then buying a used Model S which is grandfathered to the Supercharger network like Joe did would be the only way to go, IMO. There are other cars which can go 250 or 300 miles, but if you're regularly traveling long distances and DCQC is costing you way more than what gasoline would, it just doesn't seem all that practical to me - I love our EV's, and wish I could drive them everywhere, but paying $1 for $.10 worth of electricity just rubs me the wrong way. At ten cents per KWH, an iMiEV holds about $1.50 worth and paying $15 to get an 80% recharge is just . . . . ridiculous

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

ChrisEV
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm
Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:57 pm

Thanks for making the thread Joe!

EVgo sounds like Koben Systems/KSI here in Ontario, Canada. They got a nice government contract to put up chargers all over and there’s nothing but problems. Their Facebook page is full of angry comments. 24kW L3 chargers(advertised as 50kW), expensive and frequently not working. Sadly they’re the most common.

ChargePoint and other companies are pretty fair here. The mall near me has free charging for the first 2 hours and then $2/hour after that. I think that’s a fair setup but I don’t see it too much.

The free ones around the city are frequently abused. IKEA has free L2 and L3 charging and the other day I saw a guy napping in his Model X while charging. Who knows how long he was there.

Looking at PlugShare I think some fights will break out at some point.

I love my MIEV. I bought it solely for my 84km commute and it does that well although in the cold winter I come home with 2-3 bars so I’ve had to use a public charger at times. Charging for 12-13 hours overnight when I get home only gets me to 14-15 bars and I still have some range anxiety.

Almost all my charging will be at home. Public charging helps keep the car/battery warm as well as give me a bit of peace of mind and a little extra range as I’m still getting used to the car.
2012 i-MIEV SE Premium

Aerowhatt
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:50 pm

ChrisEV wrote:Thanks for making the thread Joe!

I love my MIEV. I bought it solely for my 84km commute and it does that well although in the cold winter I come home with 2-3 bars so I’ve had to use a public charger at times. Charging for 12-13 hours overnight when I get home only gets me to 14-15 bars and I still have some range anxiety.

Almost all my charging will be at home. Public charging helps keep the car/battery warm as well as give me a bit of peace of mind and a little extra range as I’m still getting used to the car.


I would serious consider upgrading my home charging to 240V if I were you. When you consider the ongoing cost of supplemental public charging, it won't take long to pay yourself back for the upgrade. Winter becomes far more manageable Since pre heating (defroster mode) on 240v leaves you with a toasty warm cabin to start out and piping hot fluid in the system to maintain comfort with minimal battery usage. Leaving at 100% every morning, it sounds like it would get you over the hump and eliminate any reason for range anxiety. Just being able to be confident and comfortable with your range is worth quite a bit in my life. Starting each day easily at 100% is what 240 volts gets you.
We can go hiking in the mountains, go out to dinner on the way back, even go to a movie after dinner. Getting home with between 10% and 20% left in the battery. Plug in at say 10:30pm dial in a 2 hour timer delay. The car is 100% full and ready to be preheated before I wake up in the morning! What is that worth . . . more than it cost me for sure! Saved enough on fuel cost in 5000 relaxed confident miles to pay for it.

EVgo has entered NM recently. I have been to their DCQC twice (testing the water). Would not function either time! A customer service remote system reboot of the unit threw up a Windows 98 screen while it was booting up. Really, seriously, what a joke (still would not work). Total DCQC attempts here with (now) two providers is 21 attempts to charge. Only 13 of those resulted in an actual charge. All but two I called Customer service for help. Not one time could they solve the problem remotely. Their APPS always show the locations ready to go. In one case the CS rep told me they had an error, charge failure report from another EV owner, 8 days before mine. Yet, the APP told me, all was good when I headed there. Imagine the protests in the streets if ICE drivers had that experience at gas stations!

Aerowhatt
2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015
2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016

jray3
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Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:23 pm

And then we have the BLINK IPO. The outfit that purchased the Blink Network out of bankruptcy, Car Charging Group, renamed themselves Blink, and is now requesting charity or wildly optimistic stock purchases for an IPO that will primarily pay down debt, including back bonuses to former executives and lots of legal fees. However, they don't make sense to me. The helpline is still staffed and I just jot a call that one of the stations I host, which has failed it's self-test procedure for over six months, should be repaired this week! I have confirmation that there's a rush of repairs going on in the Seattle area right now, must be trying to raise PlugShare scores prior to the offering.

Here's the message going out to customers... skim the prospectus for maximized entertainment.

Our Public Offering

BlinkCharging.com
Blink Charging Stations

As an early adopter and/or advocate of the electric vehicle (EV) market, you likely agree with our mission of supporting EV adoption and the expansion of public EV charging infrastructure. Whether it's residential or commercial EV charging equipment and services, we are committed to providing the necessary infrastructure wherever cars park.

As a loyal Blink member, we know that you're aware of both the exciting opportunities and the challenges of the industry, and we would like to make you aware of new company announcements and investment opportunities. Therefore, we are excited to announce that Blink Charging has filed documentation with the Securities Exchange Commission (the "SEC") regarding a public offering of our securities and, at our request, the underwriters of that offering have agreed to consider reserving a number of the shares of common stock being offered for our Blink members.

To learn about the public offering, view the offering prospectus, and/or express interest in participating in the offering, please visit:

https://www.blinkcharging.com/investor-inquiry

If you would prefer to speak to a broker directly, please contact Offering@BlinkCharging.com

We thank you, as always, for your business and look forward to an exciting future together!

Sincerely,

Mike Calise
Chief Executive Officer

Blink Charging Co. (the "Company") has filed a registration statement on Form S-1 (the "registration statement") with the SEC for the offering to which this communication relates. The offering will be made by means of a prospectus only. Before you invest, you should read the prospectus included in the registration statement for more complete information about the Company and this offering. You may get these documents for free by visiting EDGAR on the SEC web site at www.sec.gov. Alternatively, the Company, the underwriter or any dealer participating in the offering will arrange to send you the prospectus if you request it by calling toll-free 1-888-248-6627. This communication shall not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy, nor shall there be any sale of the referenced securities in any state or jurisdiction in which such offer, solicitation, or sale would be unlawful prior to registration or qualification under the securities laws of any such state or jurisdiction.
BlinkCharging.com
Copyright © 2018 Blink Charging, All rights reserved.
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 87,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

JoeS
Site Moderator
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Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Yes, I also got that 'invite' from Blink and rolled my eyes :roll: and didn't bother reading the prospectus.

On the one hand we can criticize EVgo for their pricing and Blink for their ongoing broken hardware, but on the other hand what desperately-needed public EV charging model works without some type of subsidy?

As an example, the Japanese have funded the DriveTheArc project consisting of a whole bunch of EVgo charging stations providing a path from Monterey to Lake Tahoe in California, with CHAdeMO presently being free.
https://insideevs.com/drivethearc-fast-charging-corridor-now-open-from-monterey-to-lake-tahoe/

There's a certain amount of silliness in both the willy-nilly locating of public charging stations and then having only one or two EVSEs at those locations, resulting in a complete lack of dependability when it comes to being able to rely on them. Recently, I've noticed that the situation is being exacerbated by needless (IMO) occupation by clueless Bolt owners, supplementing PHEVs, thus making it even more iffy for us in i-MiEVs to venture outside our home range radius.

Tesla has recognized the need as the Model 3 production ramps up and is increasing both the number of charging locations and number of stations at very many existing locations. Here's a great example, where 16 Supercharger stations were added across the street from the existing four stations right on my route from home to Medford, Oregon - check out the photo with beautiful Mt. Shasta in the background:
https://www.plugshare.com/location/139992
In some high-use locations that I've used, Tesla has added temporary Superchargers sitting on palettes. I'm looking forward to visiting Tesla's recently-opened 40-station solar/battery with customer lounge addition at Kettleman City. Dang, that's almost decadent!
https://www.plugshare.com/location/135469

Finally, this topic was recently addressed by a Green Car Reports article:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114436_electric-car-charging-on-the-road-has-to-be-way-way-better-than-it-is-today
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

ChrisEV
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm
Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:11 am

This is what I’m debating about my next EV car once my ICE van is paid off. My iMiev is perfect for cummuting and running errands around town but I’d want something wth much more range as another car eventually and go fully electric.

Having access to Superchargers is a huge bonus as public EV charging is expensive and somewhat unreliable. Tesla is putting up a few more Superchargers here in Toronto according to PlugShare which is impressive.

But I’m not really sold on the Model3, that minimalist interior with the giant touch screen just looks off to me.
2012 i-MIEV SE Premium

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3461
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:34 am

I found this EVgo analysis pertinent to this discussion, with DCQC issues from the supplier's point of view -

https://d231jw5ce53gcq.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/eLab_EVgo_Fleet_and_Tariff_Analysis_2017.pdf

Demand charges are hideous - for example, PG&E's demand rate is $18.64 per kWh (that's right, NOT 18¢/kWh!), and as I understand it this then lasts through the entire billing cycle.

Ref: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-19.pdf

Without a rate restructure specifically pertinent to DCQC high-demand-power car charging, I think it's tough to make a profit being a DCQC car-charging supplier.

In wandering around some of Tesla's recently-installed Superchargers, I've spied sizeable battery banks - undoubtedly intended to take peak loads and ensure that the facility doesn't get into the demand charging region. Incidentally, the local high school, in addition to installing a massive solar array covering their parking lot, also installed a huge battery bank for demand charge mitigation. Evidently the math showed a very short payback timeframe.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

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