ChrisEV
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Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:16 pm

The demand pricing for L3 charging is going to be a problem. I’d have thought doing a higher up front investment with solar and a large battery would be a good alternative.

In Canada we seem to pay similar prices as in the US for L3 charging and around here our stations were subsidized to the government. People are wondering if this a conspiracy to discourage EVs :) they’re expensive and often broken.

JoeS wrote:ChrisEV, would you have taken that 160km winter trip in the i-MiEV if you had free CHAdeMO L3 spaced every 65km along the way?

I suspect that free (subsidized) L3 charging will gradually disappear. Given some of the present L3 cost structure (e.g., EVgo), at today's gasoline rates this makes long-distance BEV travel not only somewhat painful (timewise with <50kW stations) but also uncompetitive financially with ICE (except for Tesla).


I don’t think I’d have taken the trip even if I had nicely spaced L3 chargers for free.
I’m not experienced enough with the i-MIEV to take a long trip and given that it was about 32F and windy I’m not sure what my range would be like. It also would have cost us time we didn’t have as we wanted to arrive before dark.

The hotel also doesn’t have a charger and Id need quite an extension cord to use the outlets here. Not sure how accommodating hotels are on this.

I might try the trip in the spring/summer when it’s warmer. We did a similar distance in November and the frequent stops for charging really annoyed the wife.

We are on a little V-day holiday so I’m not rocking the boat this time:)
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JoeS
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Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:57 am

Pertinent to this discussion, here's the latest from ChargePoint (I didn't quite understand who their target audience is for this presentation):
http://info.chargepoint.com/rs/079-WYC-990/images/2017_ChargePoint_Charging_Forward_Report.pdf

One thing I'm belatedly beginning to realize is that multi-unit-dwellers, at present, have no choice but to rely on locally-available public charging stations (in addition to workplace charging which has become very ubiquitous around here).
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
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ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

ChrisEV
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Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm

JoeS wrote:Pertinent to this discussion, here's the latest from ChargePoint (I didn't quite understand who their target audience is for this presentation):
http://info.chargepoint.com/rs/079-WYC-990/images/2017_ChargePoint_Charging_Forward_Report.pdf

One thing I'm belatedly beginning to realize is that multi-unit-dwellers, at present, have no choice but to rely on locally-available public charging stations (in addition to workplace charging which has become very ubiquitous around here).


Seems like something for investors and potential customers for public chargers. A lot of the malls/shops here installed ChargePoint public chargers with the expectation that it would increase business(and whatever fees they may charge will reimburse their investment). Might even be more important to them with Amazon slowly killing traditional brick and mortar stores. Getting a free/cheap charge to entice people to shop instant of an Amazon order.

Condo residents with an EV have an uphill battle installing chargers, they flat out refuse to install one for you even if you pay for it.

I believe the city is holding meetings to update laws to make it possible etc as such people have to find public charging otherwise which is hit or miss.

Reading PlugShare comments has become something of a guilty pleasure of mine. We will have to invent a term like “charger rage” as people are getting more and more testy over spots being “ICE’d”, “Volt’d” and even “Tesla’d”.
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ChrisEV
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Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:38 am

Amazingly they just opened a L3 charger in Niagara Falls, just out of the MIEV range, about 120km away.

For the low low price of $20/hour:(

So it looks like a short road trip to the Falls cost as much as a trip with an ICE car.

I’m leaning Tesla more and more. I don’t think Superchargers cost that much.
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jray3
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Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:29 pm

ChrisEV wrote:I’m leaning Tesla more and more. I don’t think Superchargers cost that much.

Indeed, EVen in expensive CA, a recent model 3 supercharging session costed out at 20 cents/kWh. I've considered the Blink rate of 39 cents fair, here in WA where they're paying under 10 cents per kWh and perhaps another 40% in demand charges to get the power.

Model 3 supercharging so far appears far cheaper than gas.

On a similar note, Seattle EV Association recently prevailed when a new DCFC network announced fixed pricing plans of "around $11 per session". SEVA opposed this and Seattle City Light changed course and priced the service at $0,43/kWh with a one hour session limit. So far their average session has been below $5. The price was sufficient to encourage drivers to take only what they need and then disconnect!
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Don
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Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:30 am

jray3 wrote:The price was sufficient to encourage drivers to take only what they need and then disconnect!
I think more of this is what's going to be needed, long term. A sliding cost structure for DCQC makes a lot of sense, at least to me. 50 cents (per Kw) for the first 5Kw, 60 cents for the next 5 and so on. Anything with an hourly rate which allows an owner with a BIG battery to charge for the same price as those with much smaller batteries isn't going to be popular with everyone - You should pay for what you get and not for how long it takes you to get it

Abusing 'free' charging can cause it to go away as well. A company like Best Buy (and others) can put a free charger or two in front of their store to encourage shoppers to patronize their businesses but there are those who will take advantage, just because it's free (or reasonably priced). When a patron who would use it for 30 minutes or so while shopping cannot get plugged in because someone else is there to fill up their car, they are spoiling it for everyone - Likely the biggest abusers only live a few miles away and would rather charge on someone else's dime rather than pay to charge at home

If I owned a business, I would think twice about installing a charger when I see them being taken advantage of for purposes other than intended

Don
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ChrisEV
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Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:54 pm

A sliding cost structure is a great idea. The flat pricing and mandatory session fees are crazy.

Incidentally this is my last DCFC session(lucky it was free). Started at 36%.

Image

Only 2X as fast as my L2 charging. I just gave up and drove on. Made it there and back with 1 bar left.
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JoeS
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Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:55 pm

ChrisEV wrote:A sliding cost structure is a great idea. The flat pricing and mandatory session fees are crazy...
One of the issues across the country is laws which prohibit "selling" electricity if you are not a utility. California had such a law but promptly changed it to accommodate /kWh payment for EV charging.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
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ChrisEV
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Location: GTA, Canada

Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 pm

JoeS wrote:
ChrisEV wrote:A sliding cost structure is a great idea. The flat pricing and mandatory session fees are crazy...
One of the issues across the country is laws which prohibit "selling" electricity if you are not a utility. California had such a law but promptly changed it to accommodate /kWh payment for EV charging.


Oh yes California seems the most progressive in addressing the needs of EVs.

Not sure where the laws are at here but hopefully they adopt more fair policies(they’ll have to as EV get more popular).

Free loading at chargers set up at private businesses is fairly common. I imagine a lot of people don’t have a charger at home due to landlord, condo association etc.

Hotels should install them as I find myself looking for that before I book. It’d be easier for me to take a road trip to Buffalo, NY but there’s exactly 2 hotels in the entire city that have one.

I just found out there’s a program where the government will reimburse 80% of the cost of charger installation at the workplace so I’ll see if I can get something going. It would be nice for the winter for sure.

That’s a good type of incentive program to get these installed at the workplace.
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JoeS
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Re: Future of Public EV Charging

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:33 am

Good news. Looks as though EVgo has listened to their customers and changed their rate structure. They've eliminated the onerous "Session Fee" and extended the session times. If you use DCQC more than once a month, it may well be worthwhile signing up with them, as they basically give you back the $10/month charge.
https://www.evgo.com/charging-plans/
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

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