nickpantel
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:36 am
Location: Greece

Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:20 am

I have a Peugeot ION. At the manual says that while charging, I shouldn't use an electrical extension lead, multi-way connector, adaptor or timer. I charge my car usualy during night time (starting at 10:00pm) but I can't stay awake until it will be charged. I would like to use a mechanical timer like the one bellow
http://www.buymeasuringtools.com/24-Hou ... -10191083/
Could you please tell me if I will have any problem using it?
Thanks

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3507
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:46 am

TIMER
The key parameter to watch out for is the amount of current that can be switched. In this case, the only parameter listed is "6. Power supply: 220-240V/50Hz max. 3500W". Our North American i-MiEVs only draw around 3100W and presumably your European version has a similar upper limit, thus this should work just fine for you.

I have been using mechanical countdown timers for charging my i-MiEVs as I find it much faster to simply dial in the amount of charge I need to take the car up to 12-13 bars, at a L2 (240vac) rate of three bars/hour (instead of using the Remote).

Here is an existing thread which addressed this: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=129&p=2910

The other issues you may wish to address are the connectors and wire gauge of your extensions. I am not familiar with the various European regulations governing these.

CONNECTORS
In the USA, the maximum current passing through a given connector is derated to 80% of a connector's capacity for steady-state loads, such as experienced in battery charging. For example, the conventional 120vac NEMA 5-15 connector is nominally rated at 15A, but for charging purposes it is derated to 12A. I do not know what your European plug or socket ratings are nor what the regulations state, but it never hurts to be conservative and operate way below the maximum ratings.

WIRE GAUGE
This is typically determined by the length of wire and allowable voltage drop across the wire due to its resistance. I tend to be conservative and use #10AWG for lengths of around 25'-30' (10m). Depending on your cable length, you should be ok using 4mm^2 or, better yet, 6mm^2 wire.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

nickpantel
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:36 am
Location: Greece

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:35 am

The charger that I have is
https://postimg.org/image/oaxol87ib/
It doesn't say Watt but as far as i know Volt X Amber = Watt. So 220X16 = 3520 watt. The mechanical timer says max 3500W. So this is why you say that its ok?
Another question is why the official manual says not to use timer?
Thanks

jray3
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Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:39 pm

Hi Nick,
The pitiful 8A 120V Level 1 EVSE that we got here in the USA does well on pretty much any extension cord (I've used it on 100' of 14 gauge many times, but only if not coiled up to avoid hot spots.) Your L2 EVSE should use a 10 gauge extension cord, and then you'd be fine. A long as your timing scheme doesn't add many on/off cycles to the charging regimen, I see no reason not to. (More cycles means more wear on all of the contacts involved, especially in that cheap Chinese timer.)
-JRay
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 89,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

JoeS
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:21 pm

Nick, the photo of the European Panasonic EVSE nameplate shows a maximum current that the EVSE could pass-through, which is 16A. The i-MiEV undoubtedly draws less.

Which country are you in? You might consider updating your profile: How To Let Us Know Where You Are Located

The two-prong connector you show I believe is 16A
http://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/

Derating, it should be good for 12A-13A continuous. What is the exact ac voltage in your country? 220vac? 230vac? 240vac? The exact voltage will tell us how much current the charger will draw, as I believe it is a constant-power device.

The unanswered question is what is the actual power that the charger onboard the European i-MiEV draws? I postulate that it's not much different than ours which is around 3100W. What does the owner's manual say? If all else fails, measure it.

Finally, another way to tell if there is an issue is to actually hold the connectors while the car is charging. They may be slightly warm, but NEVER HOT

nickpantel wrote:Another question is why the official manual says not to use timer?
I surmise because many common timers have lower current ratings and people could use inferior extensions. You are correct in doing your homework and asking questions.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

zzcoopej
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Location: Gosford, Australia
Contact: Website

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:18 pm

nickpantel wrote: I charge my car usualy during night time (starting at 10:00pm) but I can't stay awake until it will be charged. I would like to use a mechanical timer
Could you please tell me if I will have any problem using it?


I used this https://www.jaycar.com.au/mains-timer-with-lcd/p/MS6110 timer for my iMiEV and it worked fine for a year and then died from an issue with the relay, no fire or any damage outside the case.
The specs specifically say -
Internally this unit has a switching contact rated at 30 Amps, not 10 Amps like the cheap ones from the hardware store. While you cannot connect a load exceeding 10 Amps to this unit, it does allow you to use with electrical items with high start-ups like HID lighting ballasts which destroy the cheap units.


I assume you are wanting to start charging at 10pm due to a lower Time of Use tariff that starts at that time? After my timer failed, I had a J1772 cable permanently wired into our off-peak hot water heater so the timer which switches the hot water heater on at night also starts the iMiEV charging, you may be able to do something similar if you ask your power provider? The upside is that there is nothing to really go wrong, no connectors so you simply plug it in. If we want to charge during the day, we still have the original J1772 cable into a normal powerpoint.

EvBatMon App for iMiEV/C-Zéro/iOn
Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.EvPositive.EvBatMon_iMiEV
iOS (iPhone,iPad,iPod) https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/evbatmon-for-mitsubishi-imiev/id1143905475
www.EvPositive.com

nickpantel
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:36 am
Location: Greece

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:30 am

JoeS wrote:TIMER
The key parameter to watch out for is the amount of current that can be switched. In this case, the only parameter listed is "6. Power supply: 220-240V/50Hz max. 3500W". Our North American i-MiEVs only draw around 3100W and presumably your European version has a similar upper limit, thus this should work just fine for you.

I have been using mechanical countdown timers for charging my i-MiEVs as I find it much faster to simply dial in the amount of charge I need to take the car up to 12-13 bars, at a L2 (240vac) rate of three bars/hour (instead of using the Remote).

Here is an existing thread which addressed this: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=129&p=2910

The other issues you may wish to address are the connectors and wire gauge of your extensions. I am not familiar with the various European regulations governing these.

CONNECTORS
In the USA, the maximum current passing through a given connector is derated to 80% of a connector's capacity for steady-state loads, such as experienced in battery charging. For example, the conventional 120vac NEMA 5-15 connector is nominally rated at 15A, but for charging purposes it is derated to 12A. I do not know what your European plug or socket ratings are nor what the regulations state, but it never hurts to be conservative and operate way below the maximum ratings.

WIRE GAUGE
This is typically determined by the length of wire and allowable voltage drop across the wire due to its resistance. I tend to be conservative and use #10AWG for lengths of around 25'-30' (10m). Depending on your cable length, you should be ok using 4mm^2 or, better yet, 6mm^2 wire.

If I will use a 10m lenght extension cable with 4mm^2 diameter, won't have any voltage lost?

nickpantel
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:36 am
Location: Greece

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:48 am

JoeS wrote:Derating, it should be good for 12A-13A continuous. What is the exact ac voltage in your country? 220vac? 230vac? 240vac? The exact voltage will tell us how much current the charger will draw, as I believe it is a constant-power device.
It's 220v. 220v X 16A=3500w and the machanical timer says 3500W, is it ok to use it?

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3507
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:51 pm

OK, if we assume that your European onboard charger is just like the North American onboard charger, then the maximum power I have seen is around 3100W. 3100/220 = 14A. Your EVSE is capable of 16A, but the car does not draw that much. That 3500W (max) timer should be just fine. Just make sure your extension cables and connectors are robust, as discussed above.

Edit -
Additional caution: Since this item is made in China and, although it claims CE and other certifications, when you first hook it up and start charging, after about 15 minutes I would physically touch the timer and input cables and connectors to ensure they are not excessively warm.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Mechanical Timer for Charging?

Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:59 pm

Keep in mind the 'charger' is built into the car and I think you're reading the capacity of the EVSE and calling it the charger - Correct?

All that matters is the rating on the charger in the car - The EVSE may be good for 240 volts @ 16 amps (3,840 watts) and it could pass that amount to the car *if* the charger in the car called for that amount, but it never will

The charger is rated for 3,300 watts max and in actual use, it draws a little less - Around 3,150 watts in most cases

Since your timer is rated for 3,500 watts and the car can never draw more than 3,300 watts, you're for sure OK to use that timer - Don't let the ratings on the EVSE confuse you - It's just the device which feeds power from the mains to the onboard charger and it has ratings of it's own,based on the components in it and the wire gauges it uses

The factory 'prohibition' for using extension cords is only there because they never know what some folks will use for an extension cord. So long as the cord is rated for the power you're using, the use of cords is fine - When in doubt, use a heavier cord than you think you need and you'll be fine . . . . even if you were using a 30 meter cord

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

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