Gyver
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:50 am
Location: Rimini - Italy
Contact: Website

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:55 pm

The OBDlink has arrived!

CanIon is wonderful!

here it is the first data (at 58% SOC)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eT3Z4VzlUU3JuZjA/view?usp=sharing

it is clear that cells 10 and 15 behave differently than the others..

JoeS
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:59 pm

Gyver, that's great information! Now, let her slowly charge up fully, and what happens?
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Gyver
Posts: 16
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Location: Rimini - Italy
Contact: Website

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:16 am

JoeS wrote:Gyver, that's great information! Now, let her slowly charge up fully, and what happens?


My slowest charge is with my stock evse at 10 amps, 220v (standard here).
this is the battery status after a full charge this morning:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eOHNFcWJSRWlDQnc/view?usp=sharing
clearly the 2 faulty cells have a lower voltage and SOC tops out at 91.5%

then I drove the car just for a moment and plugged it in again to see how it behaves with charging currents.
Normally, when the battery is empty, the charging current shots up directly at 10 amps. In this case it slowly ramps up, peak at 6 amps, then slows down:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eNnJNNmdncTJZdTg/view?usp=sharing

after some minutes canonIon shows just a 1-2 amps withdrawal that continues for quite a long time. I suppose it is the cell balancing sequence:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eQTJQN0VZUk1iR1E/view?usp=sharing

JoeS
Site Moderator
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Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:34 am

Gyver, thanks for posting. Yes, two cells and maybe a third. As PV1 said, this is the first time we've seen multiple cell failures.
Gyver wrote:...It was used as a demonstrative vehicle in 2012/2013 (exp. date of its last insurance was October 2013) and then it was left alone for 2 years....
I can't help wondering at what SOC the car was left alone, as conventional wisdom tells us that leaving lithium-chemistry batteries fully charged, especially if exposed to higher temperature, is a recipe for murder...

Anyway, great that you are getting a new pack, and hopefully it will be 16kWh, and soon...
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Gyver
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:50 am
Location: Rimini - Italy
Contact: Website

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:12 am

JoeS,
that was quite a special car, they displayed it in some cities, and just for 1 year. In Milan I know they used a ChaDemo charger (somebody told me at Citroen), in the other cities they had a Mennekes to Yazaki cable (I received that too with the car). then it has been left alone between 2 and 3 years. When I took it the tyres were flat, 12v battery dead, but at 2900 kms the car was like new. I bet they stored it at 100% SOC.
Last edited by Gyver on Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gyver
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:50 am
Location: Rimini - Italy
Contact: Website

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:35 am

I made a new experiment.
I ran the car with full charge (91.5% SOC in my case) till it stopped completely (0% SOC). Thanks to CanIon I managed to calculate when I needed to approach home (driving very slowly).

SOC history:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eampFa2lnZ1lnMG8/view?usp=sharing

Batt status @ 5% SOC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eRTdPNEZoU01vNkU/view?usp=sharing

Batt status @ 1.5% SOC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eX09hLUcySTB1TlE/view?usp=sharing

Batt status @1% SOC (While slowly driving):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eR1prZFNISmZEUW8/view?usp=sharing

batt status @ 0,5% SOC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45ebnlxT2x0UEZaX1E/view?usp=sharing

batt status @ 0% SOC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eWVBkbTRRdVV3M2c/view?usp=sharing

cells temperature after completely draining the battery (outside temp was 7° C):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eWEZmM0RJSV9kcDg/view?usp=sharing
Last edited by Gyver on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

JoeS
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Posts: 3957
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:58 am

Good screenshots, dramatically showing your battery pack problem. Isn't CaniOn great! Battery temperature at 20.3degC at 0% SoC is very comfortable, even with 7degC ambient. I wouldn't hold my breath that those two cells will rejuvenate - actually, do NOT wish them to, as you are expecting a new pack under warranty. In the meantime, happily drive your silent workhorse and enjoy it, recognizing that you have somewhat diminished range.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Gyver
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:50 am
Location: Rimini - Italy
Contact: Website

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:25 am

thank you Joes,
I am enjoying it, and even having fun experimenting with it, knowing in some days I will have a new pack. Cells won't rejuvenate, even the technician at Citroen told me that. He told me cycling the battery with deep discharges / full recharges will probably give me some range gain but can't fix defective cells. Once they are gone, they are gone.
Besides driving full electric in Italy is very nice, it is the only private vehicle (besides taxis) to have access to the old town centres (very very old, the white marble bridge I cross every day is 2100 years old..), ICEs stay out.

Gyver
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:50 am
Location: Rimini - Italy
Contact: Website

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:38 pm

Surprise surprise!
after discharging the car completely (to a complete stop), I fully recharged. To my surprise I now have all the bars on the "tank" gauge, this is the first time it ever happens :shock: . When I first had my car in December it showed just 12 bars when fully charged. CanIon now shows "100% SOC" while until yesterday it showed maximum 91.5% when fully charged. I still have 109 kms on the rr gauge, and I still can see the bad cells, so I think my c-zero has just recalibrated the SOC gauge to show 100% representing the maximum my pack can achieve, not what it is supposed to.

batt status @ 100% SOC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2nh4ZMDv45eS19tTjdBV0ZNOTA/view?usp=sharing

jumpjack
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:04 am

Re: Battery cell failing at just 2900 km (1800 miles)

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:54 am

Permament usage of defective lithium battery is never a good idea. :o

Apart from this, any news on the topic? Replacement arrived?

How much would it cost to replace the battery out of warranty?

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