PV1
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Re: Long Distance Travel Battery Thermal Concerns

Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:16 am

If they simply replace each cell with a block of 18650 cells wired in parallel, and the blocks are wired in series like the existing cells are, then nothing should change except for an increase in capacity.

A box with the same dimensions as an LEV50 cell can fit 24 (possibly a few more) 18650 cells. Wire all of those cells in parallel, and the whole group will still be a 3.7 volt battery, but with ~80 Ah of capacity. Make 88 boxes of 18650 cells, and you now have the cell replacement for the LEV50 for the entire pack, giving the i-MiEV 26 kWh of capacity and 100+ miles of range (once the computer re-calibrates and opens up the additional capacity). The trick is using cells that can handle the amps drawn under full acceleration and quick charging, as well as adequately sinking the heat generated, especially on longer drives in the summer. Cell level fuses (like those used in Tesla modules) are also highly recommended.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.

mdbuilder
Posts: 226
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Location: Great Mills, Md.

Re: Long Distance Travel Battery Thermal Concerns

Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:52 am

I would think if they used the best quality high amperage rated cells it ought to work OK with only air cooling. The i is a fairly low stress application compared to a Tesla, 49Kw = appr. 150 amps max / 24 = 6 to 7 amps per cell. "Quick charging" isn't even all that quick at that pack size, well under 2C for the chargers I've seen around here.

But yeah, there is no guarantee and there would be a big cost incentive to use less than the best cells.
2015 Nissan NV200
2012 I-Miev SE Premium
2009 Mazda 5
2017 Toyota Prius Prime

JoeS
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Re: Future Battery Replacement

Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:13 am

zzcoopej wrote:... I think the biggest issue will be tricking the BMS into still charging it, considering all the voltage and temperature sensors inside the pack.
Agree! If I were hacking the i-MiEV battery pack, this is the first thing I would want to be sure of before spending any time doing anything else.

All good ideas, and y'all noticed that I moved your posts into this topic-appropriate thread. :roll:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Don
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Re: Future battery replacement

Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:08 pm

By coincidence, the Segways also use 18650 cells wired in a configuration where 92 cells provide 76 volts @ about 5 amps. An OEM Segway battery is about $800 each (it uses two) and there are several folks who are offering 'rebuilt' battery packs for about $600 each - They cut open the battery case, replace all 92 cells using the original BMS and epoxy the case back together. Stock batteries are 5.2 ah and rebuilts are available up to 6.4 ah, depending on who manufactured the new cells. Samsung cells seem to be the preferred brand

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1994 Miata 60K miles - Soon to be sold
1979 Honda CBX six into six

Phximiev
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:25 pm
Location: Phoenix

Re: Future battery replacement

Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:36 am

2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

kiev
Posts: 440
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Location: The Heart o' Dixie
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:58 pm

Those LSE 190 cells that Boeing is ordering are quite hefty, not sure they would fit in our pack, but we could sure do some burnouts:

dimensions: 165 x 50 x 263 mm width x thickness x height
weight: 4.59 kg ( 10 lbs)
volume: 2.03 liters
max continuous discharge: 190 Amps
max peak discharge (5 seconds): 570 Amps

Other interesting features:
• Hermetically sealed
• Anodized aluminum case and cover
• Wound prismatic construction
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

Phximiev
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:25 pm
Location: Phoenix

Re: Future battery replacement

Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:15 pm

Yes, indeedy a burn-out to remember....

But all the same, GSY is in the battery business, obviously at the top of their game so to speak, and we need an upgrade.

Ok, I'll quit grumbling....

:cry:
2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

svingen
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:39 pm

Re: Future battery replacement

Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:21 am

Any news? Have about 78% battery and would like to get a30kwh :)

KiwiEV
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Re: Future battery replacement

Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:10 am

My battery's fine, but I got wondering whether a swap-out with new cells would be cheaper than an entire battery replacement in the future. So, out of sheer curiosity, I emailed Lithium Energy Japan last week for a price on buying 100 brand new LEV50 cells. I expected to hit a brick wall but you never know until you try.

Their initial response was why I wanted them. I explained to replace cells in an electric car (plus have spares). They then emailed back:

We are providing the spare batteries to Mitsubishi Motors Europe to distribute to the end customer in Europe.
I may have to ask you to contact to your vehicle's car dealer for replacing your battery. If they have an enough stock, they will sell you the new batteries.
If not, we will receive the order from Mitsubishi Motors Europe for the spare batteries.


So, I emailed Mitsubishi Slovakia, asking for a price and a part number for the LEV50 cell. They responded the next day that the part number is MZ690402 and it costs €143,81 per cell. But then searching around the net, it looks like that they actually quoted me a lead-acid battery. I emailed them back to clarify if this is indeed true, but I haven't heard back yet.

In the meantime, I asked Peugeot Slovakia the same question. They responded back that they cannot sell individual cells; they can't even order them themselves. They said the only option was to replace the whole pack at a cost of €18,510. Hehehe, no thanks. :lol:

So, the answers appear to be that it's just not possible to buy individual cells from Mitsubishi/Peugeot/Citroen, even though the manufacturer gave me the impression it is possible. Of course, someone in that chain might not have the correct info.

The other alternative is waiting for a third-party battery manufacturer to make similar cells which drop straight in, replacing the old cells, but after searching around the net it seems no company is making those (yet).

When my battery pack does eventually wind down, I'd much prefer to replace it with a new one than throw away the entire car and upgrade. This is both for ecological and sentimental reasons. I just don't want to pay three times more than the car is worth to do it! Oh well, the joy of being pioneers, huh?

PV1
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Re: Future battery replacement

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:36 am

That part number appears to be for the 12 volt battery under the front hood.

I wonder if someone like EVWest or Youtube's jehugarcia would be interested in assembling some LEV50 replacements? The dimensions of the cells are readily available, and I've already calculated that it's physically possible to fit about 80 Ah worth of 18650 cells in the same space as each LEV50 cell, boosting range to about 100 miles.

An example of jehugarcia's work:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvy3g_NIr8s
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.

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