jray3
Posts: 1329
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:15 am

kiwimiev wrote:The CAM80 from EVTV looks like it may replace the LEV50 making a 25kW battery pack.

Wow- the specs just keep getting better and better, though it looks like CALB is trying to reset pricing levels, and Jack's never one to undercut the market unless he can still make out like a bandit. Buddy pairs of those cells could feed a Zilla 1k quite nicely, but salvaged LEAF cells still look like a better buy. I'm not even monitoring the options for i-MiEV cell replacement, since the universe of options should be very different when that time comes. Unshackling the 49 kW limit on our drivetrain would be more appealing to me (which would then drive interest in a replacement pack after I murder the stock cells or simply want more range).
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 70,000 miles
i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:39 am

kiwimiev wrote:The CAM80 from EVTV looks like it may replace the LEV50 making a 25kW battery pack.
Has anyone tried to fit them?

Wouldn't the CAM80's different chemistry (i.e., different voltage range) and different capacity make it a difficult replacement for the LEV50? I would think the entire BMS would need to be changed.
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

kiwimiev
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: Auckland New Zealand

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:29 pm

alohart wrote:
kiwimiev wrote:The CAM80 from EVTV looks like it may replace the LEV50 making a 25kW battery pack.
Has anyone tried to fit them?

Wouldn't the CAM80's different chemistry (i.e., different voltage range) and different capacity make it a difficult replacement for the LEV50? I would think the entire BMS would need to be changed.


The BMS and charging are probably okay...the LEV50 LiMN max charge voltage is 4V while the CAM80 is 3.7V but other LiFE batteries like Thunder Sky can go to 4V and the CAM80 has overcharging tolerance. The minimum voltage for both is 2.5V
The capacity difference doesn't affect the BMS and charger...the car just runs longer and takes longer to charge.
I would be more concerned about the price...$155 each = $13640 for the pack!!

DogMan12
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am
Location: Kooskooskie, WA

Re: Future battery replacement

Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:31 pm

jray3 wrote: I'm not even monitoring the options for i-MiEV cell replacement, since the universe of options should be very different when that time comes.


In fact, I worry that Mitsu N.A. will even exist. Since everything on this car seems finely balanced and inter-engineered, the idea of not having a Mitsu-approved replacement battery seems a dicey proposition.

Some of you electro-garage wizards might build a better performing car with different components. I, however, am just a guy who wants to support non-fossil mobility and with a car like this - it goes to the dealer for any real work. (Yes, they have been undersupported by Mitsu N.A., too.)

How about a futures contract for an OEM replacement batt? Riiight.
Dog Man Son
2012 iMiEV
We call it not Raspberry, but Metallic Malbec

DogMan12
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am
Location: Kooskooskie, WA

Re: Future battery replacement

Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:15 am

I emailed MMNA:

Subject: Assurance Of MiEV Battery Availability

Greetings,

I am a happy owner of a 2012 MiEV.
One of my only worries about this car is that given the low sales volume, will I be able to obtain a replacement battery when needed? This will likely be in 2021 or 2022.
What assurance can Mitsubishi N.A. provide me as a Mitsubishi owner that this critical part will be available when I need it?
Thank you!

Walla Walla, WA

MiEV VIN JA3215H18CU028527

Here is their reply:

Thanks you for your email inquiry.

As you are aware, we just released the 2014 iMEV and we are required to carry parts for the duration of the warranty period for the component in question, which in the case of the traction battery, is 8 years.

We can only speculate on the availability of the battery after that point in time. Assuming the iMIEV continues to be distributed in the U.S. (which we cannot confirm at this time) battery availability will overlap with warranty coverage.

Thanks again for giving us the opportunity to respond to your question.

The information contained in this reply email is in response to your email sent to MMNA with the information provided by you. To the best of MMNA’s knowledge, the above response is accurate and correct, however MMNA reserves the right to amend or correct any of the above mentioned response.
Dog Man Son
2012 iMiEV
We call it not Raspberry, but Metallic Malbec

DogMan12
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am
Location: Kooskooskie, WA

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:41 am

So all, what ARE we going to do when our batts are done?

What makes sense financially, if anything?

Is it even remotely possible that MiEV owners could band together to "group buy" some custom order packs from some independent shop?
Dog Man Son
2012 iMiEV
We call it not Raspberry, but Metallic Malbec

jray3
Posts: 1329
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:07 pm

I believe that it will be possible to rebuild our packs even without Mitsu support, one reason I picked the car was the use of only 88 large format cells that are bolted together, something I'm confident I could rebuild myself.
Owners of the original Honda Insight have a couple of pack rebuilding options available. I could see a couple of list members forming the core of such an effort by providing the battery trays from salvaged cars to serve as 'rebuildable cores'.

Here are examples of EV pack building/rebuilding entrepreneurs, some providing rebuilds, others just a how-to guide. I have personal experience with and could recommend the first few.

http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_Batterypacks.html
Derek is the leading builder of racing packs, but it would take some work to ensure compatibility with our cars' BMS

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/
Rich and Co. have done several 'orphan pack' rebuilds.

http://www.autobeyours.com/MASP%20autob ... tenant.htm
Steve is an incredibly entrepreneurial Prius rebuilder, he finished off an incomplete Azure Dynamics/ Ford Transit Connect Electric as his shop truck.

Here's a quick weeding of google results, some may be vaporware.
http://www.batterymd.com/electricservices.html
http://www.evcenters.net/services.html
http://www.priusrebuilders.com/
http://www.hybridbatteryrebuild.com/
http://www.hybridrevolt.com/catalog/
http://www.hybridbatteryrepair.net/ (these guys abandoned the Insight market)
http://greentecauto.com/about-us
http://hs.thehybridshop.com/conditioning-quote
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 70,000 miles
i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

PV1
Site Moderator
Posts: 2803
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:22 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:58 pm

I wonder if we could get Tesla cells and build them into bricks the same size as LEV50 cells. The same voltage characteristics should mean compatibility with our BMS, though the trick is to get the car to recognize an increase in capacity, which could be as simple as installing the cells at a low charge and switch the pack with the car at a low charge level. If calculated SoC hits full before the voltage gets up to 4 volts/cell, the car may continue a slow charge to the voltage limit.

It is my guess that the balance phase at full charge is done every time the car is charged to synchronize 100% SoC with HVC (High Voltage Cutoff). My phone seems to function that way. I switched to a different charger, one that shuts off when current drops to a minimum. What that was doing was shutting off before the phone was done, usually stopping at 98-99%. In a relatively short period of time, the battery ended up drifting 43%. When the phone said 100%, cell voltage was only 3.8 instead of 4.3. On the normal charger, the phone went to 100% and continued charging at full speed for about 5-10 minutes, then stopped. After a hard reset, the phone deleted its battery info and either reverted to the factory battery map or guessed SoC by voltage. It charged until the battery hit HVC and set that as 100%. If we could figure out how to "reset" the i-MiEV's SoC clock, we might be able to increase the available capacity of a rebuilt battery pack.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.
3 years with the i-MiEV and loving every mile!

jray3
Posts: 1329
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:05 am
Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:18 pm

PV1 wrote:I wonder if we could get Tesla cells and build them into bricks the same size as LEV50 cells.


Mike Phillips is another one of those owner/entrepreneurs who's keeping a whole line of orphan vehicles alive by turning his hobby into a business supporting old US Electricar models. He has experimented with making replacements of funky-sized batteries with 18650 cells.
http://rotordesign.com/blog/lithium-pac ... -vehicles/

He's now making larger packs out of 18650 cells.
http://rotordesign.com/blog/18650-lithi ... ad-design/
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 70,000 miles
i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

iwatson
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:12 am
Location: Bartlett (Memphis), Tennessee

Re: Future battery replacement

Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:48 pm

This thread is an interesting read. I think an available replacement pack shouldn't be a problem if you have the cash to spend. The bigger problem will be putting an expensive battery into a 10 or 15 year old MIEV.

I bought the car because it was cheap, not because it was the finest EV on the market. We got a barely used one for $10,500 +Tax.

My wife loves it but, facing facts, its a cheap little basic economy car. The only reason it had such a high sticker price is because it has a $20,000 battery in it. Surely over 10 to 15 years the seats and interior appointments will show wear to the point that we'll be ready for something newer. Plus the suspension is likely very basic, so 10 to 15 years from now it may be very costly to maintain and replace suspension parts.

Meanwhile battery tech, new models and designs, will most likely mean that in 10 to 15 years we can move on to an EV that's much better designed, with much better range and style.

Because it already has a very unusual appearance, it will also likely look very dated, 10 to 15 years from now.

Of course, the industry could go the other way. With low gas prices --- In 10 to 15 years we could remember the years of 2011-2016 as the days when car makers dabbled in Electric cars. If that scenario were to play out then, yes, we'll be looking for ways to keep our antique EV's going by adding replacement batteries.
2012 Silver Mitsubishi iMiev ES with QC
2012 Raspberry Mitsubishi IMiev SE Premium with QC
2011 Viridian Joule Chevrolet Volt Premium
2002 Forest River Sunseeker 3100 LE
2001 Buick LeSabre custom
1997 Chrysler Town & Country LX

Blink 240V EVSE

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