Carsten
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:14 pm
Location: USA, Vermont
Contact: Facebook

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:17 pm

I have my EVSE at 12A and charge from 240V. When I look at the CanIon, it never goes above 2.3kW & 6.7A. Don't we have a 3.3kW-charger on board?
I have a photo but don't know, how to insert it.
Regards,

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2937
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:35 pm

Yes, we have a 3.3 Kw charger, but you can't get all of that with the Upgraded EVSE

Are you sure you have it set to 12 amps? Your 2.3 Kw reading sounds like maybe it's actually set at 10 amps??

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

Carsten
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:14 pm
Location: USA, Vermont
Contact: Facebook

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:00 pm

It blinks the 12 times it is supposed to. Tomorrow I will take the front of my panel and put a clamp meter on it.

PV1
Site Moderator
Posts: 3027
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:22 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:31 pm

There are losses in the charger and in ancillary loads related to charging the car. Among other things, there are contactors, a coolant pump, and the DC-DC converter all pulling power before it reaches the battery. At full speed, you will probably only see 2.6 kW going into the battery on CaniOn. With EVSEUpgrade, I see 2.3 kW going into the pack.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015
"Photon" - 2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

Carsten
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:14 pm
Location: USA, Vermont
Contact: Facebook

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:08 pm

Does this mean, that with a higher output EVSE I could get closer to the 3.3kW?
I have a dedicated line, that is good for up to 40A.
Would it be worth the investment?
Regards,

jsantala
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Finland
Contact: Website

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:29 pm

I've never seen (using CaniOn) more than -2.5 kW or -7 A while charging. I have a 230V 16A cable. At full blast it draws 14-15 A from the 230 V wall socket, which corresponds to 3.3 kW input power. The 2.5 kW is the most I've got into the pack from that 3.3 kW input, so the whole process is around 75% efficient. You can't get more than that using the built-in charger with any EVSE cable or station, except for CHAdeMO quick charge of course.

EVTEC advertises a portable CHAdeMO, which you could use to charge faster, but it's 16.000-18.000€ plus taxes:

http://www.evtec.ch/en/products/move_and_charge/
kWsaki.com / EVs: Nissan Leaf 2012, Citroën Xsara 1997 (conv. 81V & 8" Series DC) and Kawasaki GPX750R 1987 (conv. 87V & ME1003 PMDC) / Used to have a Citroën C-Zero 2011

Aerowhatt
Gold Member
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:41 pm

I've seen 2.5Kwh and 7.1 amps on canion using a juicebox EVSE which has huge wires and contactors in it which yeild virtually no voltage drop across the unit at the amp rates that the "i" will draw.

Also TED (which is very accurate +- 2%) has never shown more than 3.1 Kwh going to the car from the electrical panel so I am confused by the 3.3 KWh spec as well.

Also the canion input to the battery numbers don't add up. Think about it, if you have 10% SOC and you charge at L2 20+ amps available. Canion will never show more than 2.5Kwh charge rate. 90% of (lets be conservative 14.5 Kwh battery pack) is 13 KWh needed to get to full. 13KWh / 2.5KW/h = 5.2 hours. Plus you need to add at least another hour to compensate for the period when the charge rate tapers and balancing is done (which wastes some power). Plus the cells warm while charging which is due to less than 100% charge efficiency at the cells. So you really need to put more than 13 kwh back in to get full. So conservatively, it should take at least (with nonexistant 100% cell efficiency and no power dumped to balancing right) a minimum of 6 hours and 15 minutes to recharge. But it doesn't! It's about an hour off actual experience. Anyone had their "i" take more than 6 hours to recharge on full capacity L2??

So the canion input readings don't add up and seem to be up to 20% low.

I looked at the charger manufactures site and they claim 90+ % efficiency for the charger used in the "i". So the ancillary loads come off that spec and we don't know how big they are. But the efficiency can be calculated from the other end and it is quite a bit better than the ~75% that Canion is showing us.

Aerowhatt
(July) 2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015 (40.9ah at ~34K miles)
(Aug) 2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016 (39.7ah at ~20k miles)

jsantala
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Finland
Contact: Website

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:45 pm

I agree, the 2.5 kW shown by CaniOn just doesn't add up and 75% efficiency would be really bad. There must be an issue there. Should put a clamp meter on the battery wires at some point and see how many amps that reads.
kWsaki.com / EVs: Nissan Leaf 2012, Citroën Xsara 1997 (conv. 81V & 8" Series DC) and Kawasaki GPX750R 1987 (conv. 87V & ME1003 PMDC) / Used to have a Citroën C-Zero 2011

jsantala
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Finland
Contact: Website

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:00 am

By the way, when I did a full discharge-recharge test on my pack a couple of weeks ago, I got 13,117 Wh out, but fully charging the battery only yielded 11,250 Wh into the pack - further pointing that CaniOn doesn't show correct input kW when charging:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/no7fcpcfhuqvo ... 6.jpg?dl=0

If we take 11250 and divide by 2500 (as shown by Canion), we get 4,5. 13117 divided by 4,5 results 2915, which is probably close to the actual recharge watts using the integraetd charger. So instead of -2.5 kW the reality is closer to -2.9 kW and Canion shows about 14% too little.

Of course it may not be Canion's fault that the number is incorrect. It might be the vehicle. I can never get the input and output Ah to completely match on my DIY EV either. Making even a shunt based meter count big and small currents accurately at the same time is not easy.
kWsaki.com / EVs: Nissan Leaf 2012, Citroën Xsara 1997 (conv. 81V & 8" Series DC) and Kawasaki GPX750R 1987 (conv. 87V & ME1003 PMDC) / Used to have a Citroën C-Zero 2011

RobertC
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 am
Location: Winter Garden, FL

Re: EVSE Upgrade

Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:27 pm

Carsten wrote:I have my EVSE at 12A and charge from 240V. When I look at the CanIon, it never goes above 2.3kW & 6.7A. Don't we have a 3.3kW-charger on board?
Aerowhatt wrote:Also the canion input to the battery numbers don't add up.
The DC amp reading we get from Canion is about 1.0 amps low.

The on board charger takes alternating current (AC) from the EVSE and converts it to direct current (DC) going to the traction battery.
Image

Heres's the AC from the EVSE.
(244.85 volts)x(13.31 amps)=3,259 volt-amps or about 3,250 watts taking in the power factor.
Image

Here's the DC going to the traction battery.
(352 volts)x(8.12 amps)=2,858 watts.
Image

Here's the DC when the cooling pump is running.
About 0.2 amps less.
Image

The charger efficiency is (DC power to traction battery)/(AC power from EVSE)x100 = (2,858 watts)/(3,250 watts)x100 = 88%
”Red” - 2018 Red Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive Tesla Model 3 - 11/27/18
“Blue” - 2018 Kinetic Blue Chevy Bolt Premier with QC - 5/13/18
"Purple" - 2012 Raspberry Metallic ES with QC - 4/10/2013

Return to “General Technical Discussions”