Operation In Extreme Cold

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GaryW

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Peterborough ON, Canada
For the second time, I have seen the dreaded indicator car with an exclamation on it. Both occasions were when the outside temperature was in the -20C to -25C (-4F to -13F) range. The car is outside but under a carport. -20C to -30C are not uncommon for our location in Ontario Canada. The first time it happened, I was on the road a day after purchasing the imiev and it involved a flatbed to the dealer. The second time, I was at home next to a plug. Being prepared for problems, I first tried to preheat with the remote. When that failed, I turned the car on and let it stay on for 10 min with the warning but did not try to drive. After a few minutes, it seemed to start coming to life, so I restarted and the warning no longer showed on the dash. I let it warm up for a while unplugged thinking that using the battery would warm it up a bit. After 10 minutes or so I turned it off, plugged it in and preheated with the remote.

I feel like I am just flailing around. Can anyone shed light on what should be done under these conditions? My thought is that any activity in the battery (charging or discharging) will warm it up a bit so that it operates properly. Does anyone else have similar experiences?
 
My first thought would be to enclose the carport so the car could be kept at temperatures warmer than the outside, but I'm assuming that's not practical for you for any number of reasons?

I suspect you may be right about the battery activity keeping it warmer than ambient. To that end, I would send in my OEM EVSE to the guys at EVSE Upgrade to get it modified so you can adjust the charge current

A calculation and some experience would tell you what charge current to use so that the battery is always charging. If you plug it in half charged and need the car 12 hours later, maybe you would set the EVSE to charge at only 4 amps or so and then when you unplugged it in the morning it would be nearly (but not quite) fully charged. You could reset the EVSE to it's full 12 amps to use the preheat function for half an hour before you leave

I don't think anything you can do short of building a garage is going to be a good, long term solution, but the calculated, variable charge rate would be the first thing I would try . . . . until the lumberyard delivers the materials for the garage ;)

Don
 
Gary,
I also live in Ontario and park my i-MiEV outdoors (not even under a carport, just slightly shielded form the wind by a fence on one side), so the weather conditions we experience lately would probably be similar. I have not had the issues you describe, so I am curious what could be causing them. Could you describe in more detail how you are using the car and how you are charging it?
I use my car daily on a 75km round trip commute, plus some errands in the evenings quite often, so it tends to be either in use or charging almost all the time in this cold weather. Lately, I have been arriving at home with 3 or 4 bars left, and I plug it in to my upgraded OEM EVSE (at 12 amps, 120V), set a delay for about 4 hours to start charging at around 10pm so that when I need to leave at 8am the next morning it has just stopped charging or just about to. Even in -25 Celsius overnight temperatures we have had for a few nights this year, I have had no issues.
 
I've had my i-MiEV down to -9 F. Started right up and drove, no problem.

I don't think this is a direct temperature related problem. I can't see how the car would just shut down when it sees temperature below its limit.
 
We are in Quebec and have parked outside 24/7 in this extremely cold winter so far.
We keep the car plugged all night on level 2 on those cold nights .
I believe this keeps the battery fully charged so it can warm itself in those temperatures.
Canadian equipment cold weather winter package.

Temps here went down from
-25 C ( -13F ) dropping to - 31C ( - 24F )
10 pm - 1 am - on the late night drive home last night, (Hudson to St Sauveur)
85 km (53 miles)
Left with a full charge - but in these temperatures it does not charge as quick or
full as in warmer times
first bar disappeared quickly
seat heat only & lap blankets, hats gloves etc
scraping the inside of the wind shield with the blower on defrost
Had to stop and charge for about 45 minutes
9 km ( 5 1/2 miles) left on the RR gauge

It had snowed and to get in to the driveway I turned off the Anti Skid Control
Next morning at 7 am I preheated for 15 minutes, turned the car on but the ASC lights were on & would not go out.
After a 20 minute drive with full heat I stopped the car and turned it back on and it reset itself
Cold weather does some strange things.
 
HParkEV said:
Gary,
I also live in Ontario and park my i-MiEV outdoors (not even under a carport, just slightly shielded form the wind by a fence on one side), so the weather conditions we experience lately would probably be similar. I have not had the issues you describe, so I am curious what could be causing them. Could you describe in more detail how you are using the car and how you are charging it?
I use my car daily on a 75km round trip commute, plus some errands in the evenings quite often, so it tends to be either in use or charging almost all the time in this cold weather. Lately, I have been arriving at home with 3 or 4 bars left, and I plug it in to my upgraded OEM EVSE (at 12 amps, 120V), set a delay for about 4 hours to start charging at around 10pm so that when I need to leave at 8am the next morning it has just stopped charging or just about to. Even in -25 Celsius overnight temperatures we have had for a few nights this year, I have had no issues.

We have only had the car since just before Christmas so not much experience yet. We are retired and this is a second car (actually I would expect that it will be our first car if you know what I mean). But we do not use it for a commute or necessarily use it every day and have never drawn the battery down past half. We use it for short errands in a small city and plug it in every time we return. We are waiting for an ordered level 2 but so far the level 1 that comes with the imiev seems to be doing everything we need. The charger cord has two rates 8 amps and 12 amps. I have been using the 8 which seems to work fine for us. With the small amount of driving it made sense to me to stretch it out to keep the battery as active as possible in the cold.

Since our experience in the cold does not seem to match yours or some others, I wonder if something is wrong. Does anyone know of a way to actually verify if I have the Canadian model which is supposed to have a battery warmer. The dealer assures me that it does because all Canadian imievs do (a bit of circular logic). After the first incident, they said they reset the computer and everything was fine now and told me that they think the imiev was shipped with the wrong programming and my imiev perhaps thought it was the gas version. After that comment, I have been skeptical of their advice. This is why I am asking these questions here.

Here are some possible causes that I have thought of:

  • 1. the small battery is marginal and in cold weather it does not have enough to boot up the computer properly
    2. the remote is messing up and scrambling the imiev's programming
    3. I may not actually have the Canadian model
    4. Since the problem only has happened at -20C and below, but if I can get it warmed up, it appears to go away, then I wonder if it is a cold related problem with the Li battery

This is the time to work this out because in a few weeks there will not be extreme cold weather.
 
1. Put a volt meter on the battery and check voltage. Do this again as the car is started.
2. Check to make sure there are no charging timers enabled. Doubt this is the cause since the first didn't involve the remote. Correct?
3. Only way I can think of to check this is, what color is it? If blue, then definitely CA model.
4. Possible, but I'm wondering which thermometer does the car look at to determine if it's too cold. Battery? Dedicated outside temp? Motor controller?

When you tried to warm it up by letting it sit on, did it go to READY? (was the ready light lit?) If it warmed up enough in 10 minutes to be able to drive, the car must look at either the motor controller temperature or the DC-DC converter temperature, as those are the only two things powered up while sitting. It's highly unlikely that the battery would warm up enough in 10 minutes with only a couple of hundred watts being consumed (car's vampire power). Unless you had the heater on?

Also, an easy way to check for the cold weather package is, do you hear a fan come on for about 5 seconds when you plug in?
 
It is possible that your accessory battery is defective and it could be causing this issue.
If this happens again, is it possible for you to get another dealership to take a look at the car? If not, I would contact Mitsubishi Canada customer care.
Since you have the 8A - 12A switch on your OEM EVSE, I'm pretty sure its a Canadian model, since those only came with the Canada-only 2013 model.
As far as I recall from the owner's manual, the battery warming system actually operates in a very narrow temperature range - it only switches on at -25C and operates down to -29C. Above that temperature range, the Li-ion is supposed to be able to operate normally (although obviously at reduced capacity compared to mild temperatures) and below that range I'm guessing the warming system is insufficient anyway, so the i-MiEV gives up. I'm pretty sure the warming system would look at battery temperatures, as that is the relevant measure here, not ambient temperatures.
 
I will put a meter on the accessory battery next time I can.

Although the car is not blue. I was able to buy any colour as long as it was white. Good thing thats the colour I wanted. But a fan comes on for a few seconds just as I plug in so if that is a tell and the fact that I have the 8A - 12A switch then we have the cold package. The remote has not been eliminated because there were remote issues both times that I had problems.
 
I too would be suspect of the 12 volt accessory battery in those temps - It's by far the most antiquated technology in an otherwise very technically advanced vehicle

If this problem happens again, you might try putting a charger on the battery and see if that doesn't get it to start

Since you don't use it for a 'regular' daily commute and you have such adverse temps to deal with, perhaps replacing the lead acid accessory battery with an AGM battery would help performance in cold weather when the car has been sitting for quite some time

From The Battery University: "AGM has very low internal resistance, is capable to deliver high currents on demand and offers a relatively long service life, even when deep-cycled. AGM is maintenance free, provides good electrical reliability and is lighter than the flooded lead acid type. It stands up well to low temperatures and has a low self-discharge. The leading advantages are a charge that is up to five times faster than the flooded version, and the ability to deep cycle. AGM offers a depth-of-discharge of 80 percent; the flooded, on the other hand, is specified at 50 percent DoD to attain the same cycle life."

Don
 
PV1 said:
1. Put a volt meter on the battery and check voltage. Do this again as the car is started.
2. Check to make sure there are no charging timers enabled. Doubt this is the cause since the first didn't involve the remote. Correct?
3. Only way I can think of to check this is, what color is it? If blue, then definitely CA model.
4. Possible, but I'm wondering which thermometer does the car look at to determine if it's too cold. Battery? Dedicated outside temp? Motor controller?

When you tried to warm it up by letting it sit on, did it go to READY? (was the ready light lit?) If it warmed up enough in 10 minutes to be able to drive, the car must look at either the motor controller temperature or the DC-DC converter temperature, as those are the only two things powered up while sitting. It's highly unlikely that the battery would warm up enough in 10 minutes with only a couple of hundred watts being consumed (car's vampire power). Unless you had the heater on?

Also, an easy way to check for the cold weather package is, do you hear a fan come on for about 5 seconds when you plug in?


I don't think the remote had timers on it. For one thing, I have never set one and another, it seems to have trouble sending the signal when it is cold.

I was going by our indoor/outdoor temp monitor with an outdoor sensor not far from the car, not the car itself since I have not figured out how to see its temperature. Is it available on the dash somewhere?

I think the Ready light was on but not sure. If it happens again, I will check. When I left the car on it had heater and heated seats turned on and the lights were on auto so they were on. Once I plugged in again it started charging so it must have used up some juice.
 
Half a remedy, try an external battery plugged in via the lighter socket.

I have a small power box, 12V, 10A with pump for the wheels, a lamp, a meter and a lighter plug. Never needed but good to know I have it. I actually use it for hamradio.

It is needed for jumpstarting only. As soon as the i-MiEV is "ready" the DC-DC is working and providing 14.4V from the main battery.

Cheers
Peter and Karin
 
If the heater was working, then it must have been in READY. The fan will run even if not in READY, but it won't make any heat. To see outside temperature, push the button in the gauge cluster to cycle through Range Remaining, two trip odometers, the odometer, panel brightness, outside temperature, and service timers. To see battery temperatures, you will need a bluetooth OBD adapter and an Android phone/tablet running an app called Canion.
 
I think you are all forgetting the low temperature chart we had created and also can be found in the owners manual. At -25 to - 30 the car may not even be operational in these temperatures. I would go with Don's suggestion if possible of upgrading your carport to a garage, if not then I would go with the sheet plastic temporary route. I would also consider charging the car before you need it, not just when you get home - the charging process will warm up your batteries.

53634_488878927789592_666498796_o.jpg
 
Even though my imiev was plugged in and charged, think you are right that the operation of the car at all must be iffy in the -25C range and I do not think I will trust it to try to drive below -20C in future. In terms of editing my carport, this is not going to happen. After upgrading from a garage to the carport 12 years ago, I would not consider changing the carport to a garage as an upgrade. Carports have advantages over garages. They keep the frost snow and rain off but they don't tend to collect your crap like a garage does. If I really need to run the car in extreme cold, I can leave it partly discharged and charge up just before using so that there is some activity to warm up the battery. The problem might be getting back if I had to leave it in the cold for any length of time.

Does anyone know if any lasting damage can be done to the imiev battery by keeping it in cold temperatures for a number of days?
 
Wait a minute! Looking at the diagram, the battery warmer is supposed to come on at any temperature between -15C and -30C. Presumably it warms the battery up to -15C using some of the charge right? If I am plugged in would that not mean that the battery stays at -15C or higher and the charge remains full?

There is something I am not understanding about this.
 
GaryW said:
Wait a minute! Looking at the diagram, the battery warmer is supposed to come on at any temperature between -15C and -30C. Presumably it warms the battery up to -15C using some of the charge right? If I am plugged in would that not mean that the battery stays at -15C or higher and the charge remains full?

There is something I am not understanding about this.

The battery warmer, I believe, is part of the cold weather package and your car may not be so equipped.

The battery warmer works only when plugged in and charging- the warmer will bring the temperature up to the acceptable range to allow charging. It does not work while driving, or while plugged in with charge complete. Does that answer your question?
 
Strange. If it does not operate when unplugged or fully charged, what use would a battery warmer be? When driving the battery is discharging generating heat and does not need a warmer. When it is fully charged and plugged in or unplugged and parked is just about the only times you would need a battery warmer unless I am totally lost.
 
I figured I'd chime in here- like several other places, this winter so far in Northern New York has been a challenge, with two cold snaps, one down to -14F in early January (>48 hours below zero) and the current one longer and colder (>60 hours below zero, brief climb to +2F at noon time today, back below zero this afternoon), with a low of -26F, more sub -20F weather expected tonight.

Last winter, I drove the car one day at -15F (garaged at +25F or so), and it warmed up at noontime when I drove to maybe 0F. Other than reduced regen not a lot to notice.

Since then, I've had the firmware flashed and the traction pack replaced.

A couple differences this winter. First off, knowing that -22F is the lower limit for operating, I will not try and drive the car below -15F. I don't see any sense tempting the towtruck when I have a perfectly serviceable diesel engine vehicle (with its own entertainment at low temperature) available for the really cold morning commute and take the iMiEV back to work if the weather "warms up" after lunch.

Second, I noticed at low temperatures (today at work the car thermometer was +5F) now sometimes the battery gauge will creep slowly up from around 3 bars up to its actual charge level. This is a change and did not happen last winter- may be a function on the new firmware and/or the traction pack replacement. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this.

Also, at -10F in the parking lot, I started the car and got some interesting lights on the dash- once I got the yellow RBS (regenerative brake system) light, which would make sense if it was cold enough to impact regen. Another time, maybe -5 or -10, I got RBS as well as the ABS/traction control lights (maybe even a brake light) and a warning beep. In both cases, I shut the car off, waited a couple seconds and restarted, with a READY light and normal operation. Weird.

All cars start to act a little strange in very low temperatures- the IMiEV included. I avoid tempting the tow truck and use an alternate vehicle below -15F, and expect weirdness (including having to remember longer stopping distances due to reduced regen) below 0F.

On the bright side, at -20F there are no mosquitoes (or dreaded Adirondack black flies), you don't have to mow the lawn and usually don't have to shovel snow!

Cheers-
Rich
 
nt2w said:
Second, I noticed at low temperatures (today at work the car thermometer was +5F) now sometimes the battery gauge will creep slowly up from around 3 bars up to its actual charge level. This is a change and did not happen last winter- may be a function on the new firmware and/or the traction pack replacement. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this.
I've seen something like this once last summer. I was starting the car to move from one charging station to another. When the car started, I had 0 bars, then it went up one by one to where it was.

nt2w said:
Also, at -10F in the parking lot, I started the car and got some interesting lights on the dash- once I got the yellow RBS (regenerative brake system) light, which would make sense if it was cold enough to impact regen. Another time, maybe -5 or -10, I got RBS as well as the ABS/traction control lights (maybe even a brake light) and a warning beep. In both cases, I shut the car off, waited a couple seconds and restarted, with a READY light and normal operation. Weird.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1958

nt2w said:
All cars start to act a little strange in very low temperatures- the IMiEV included. I avoid tempting the tow truck and use an alternate vehicle below -15F, and expect weirdness (including having to remember longer stopping distances due to reduced regen) below 0F.
The reduced regen catches me off guard quite a few times. Oh well, good opportunity to scrape the rust and salt off the rotors. ;)
 
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