alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:49 pm

I wonder how efficient a water storage system is. I would think that it wouldn't be very efficient due to the resistance to flow of water in a pipe and efficiency losses in the pumps and turbines. But it must be better than other available alternatives up to this point. Hopefully using the excess generating capacity to charge EV battery packs will eventually become an important component of a smart grid.
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

jray3
Posts: 1500
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Location: Tacoma area, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:14 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-sto ... lectricity
If Wikipedia is accurate, pumped hydropower storage is reasonably close to battery efficiency- 70-80%, and the scale of pumped storage is orders of magnitude larger than battery banks, at relatively low capital cost, especially if it's just reversing an existing dam.

The Tennessee Valley Authority has a couple of pumped storage facilities, and I think the practice has potential for increasing the valus of some of the older, smaller hydro stations elsewhere. I'm sitting 2 miles from a mothballed hydro station that's ideally laid out for pumped storage, without salmon issues.

I've yet to try out the i-Pumped Storage Range Extender. :? It requires one to stop and fill a water bladder at the top of a hill, and gain greater regen on the way down thanks to the added weight. One must then dump the contents at the bottom of the hill (I'm picturing a fast acting dump valve/ripcord that you can use on the fly. Of course, use caution to not create hazardous conditions for a vehicle behind you- unless they are henchmen of Dr. Evil! ;)
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 87,000 miles
2012 i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

misterbleepy
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:53 am
Location: Newquay, Cornwall, UK

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:23 pm

jray3 wrote:I've yet to try out the i-Pumped Storage Range Extender. :? It requires one to stop and fill a water bladder at the top of a hill, and gain greater regen on the way down thanks to the added weight. One must then dump the contents at the bottom of the hill (I'm picturing a fast acting dump valve/ripcord that you can use on the fly. Of course, use caution to not create hazardous conditions for a vehicle behind you- unless they are henchmen of Dr. Evil! ;)

The mk.2 version will include a small turbine on the outlet pipe to generate electricity to recharge the battery when the water is dumped.
In the UK the almost continuous rainfall will keep the battery topped up without the need to actually plug in to a charger.
Keith B.
driving with the power of 15.667 kettles

alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:39 pm

misterbleepy wrote:The mk.2 version will include a small turbine on the outlet pipe to generate electricity to recharge the battery when the water is dumped.

Cool! That plus the propeller on the front of my car that spins a generator while I drive should result in almost no need for me to ever recharge. Perpetual motion will soon be realized! :)

misterbleepy wrote:In the UK the almost continuous rainfall will keep the battery topped up without the need to actually plug in to a charger.

How fortunate you are to reside in a location that provides such a nice benefit. Maybe I can modify my propeller to also be a water wheel so it will spin while parked in the rain. Now, where is that rain when I need it?
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

Barbagris
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:34 am
Location: Bilbao, Spain

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:58 am

HParkEV wrote:I know in Ontario, the power supply to the grid is mostly adjusted by varying the water flow through hydroelectric dams (24% of total power generation in 2012) and varying output of natural gas fired generating plants (18%). Most of our base load power comes from 18 nuclear reactors (54%) which are pretty much running full tilt and their output is not variable. The remaining generation is coal (2%, and not easily throttled) and wind/solar (also 2%, obviously very variable).


Each zone has different energy sources, and the distribution is changing with the time of day, is interesting to watch closely.

We can see, two days ago, how in my country we were pumping water up (hydraulic, negative) or how the wind provided much of the energy, if recharge at night.

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...learning...

MLucas
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:52 am
Location: Niagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:53 am

HParkEV wrote:I was actually considering getting a NLR PWRD vanity plate for my i-MiEV, but you can't order those for the 'Green' plates that we get on EV's.


I think you are also getting some of our hydro power from the Niagara River as well. The OPG just enlarged the water inlets to use more of the agreed upon water intake with the United States. I see the transmission lines heading north from my house.

I like to tell people my car is Water Powered to get a rise out of them.

Like Dylan...I went electric.

  • Purchased: June 29th, 2012
  • Mileage on June 29th, 2013 - 25,431 km / 15,802 miles
  • Mileage on June 29th, 2014 - 51,286 km / 32,616 miles

List of Oil Spills: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:42 pm

misterbleepy wrote:Don't forget if you start taking CO2 output of electricity generation into account for electric vehicles, you need to take into account CO2 emissions of producing and transporting petrol/diesel fuel as well as the CO2 produced burning it in the car for a meaningful comparison.

How far can an iMiev travel on the electricity used to refine 1 gallon of petrol? I've seen figures between 3KWh and 12KWh for the power required to refine 1 gallon - call it 6KWh and I reckon an iMiev could go 20 miles on that electricity...


You need to take into account, that fuel for thermal power plants is also mined, processed and transported. Even wind turbines and hydro plants have its CO2 footprint.
For instance, in Estonia, there are predominantly oil shale burning powerplants and an EV consumes for 100 km distance ca 50 kg of oil shale, dumping ca 50 kg of CO2, ca 15 kg of ashes and ca 20 litres of waste waters.

misterbleepy
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:53 am
Location: Newquay, Cornwall, UK

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:06 am

Kuuuurija wrote:You need to take into account, that fuel for thermal power plants is also mined, processed and transported. Even wind turbines and hydro plants have its CO2 footprint.
For instance, in Estonia, there are predominantly oil shale burning powerplants and an EV consumes for 100 km distance ca 50 kg of oil shale, dumping ca 50 kg of CO2, ca 15 kg of ashes and ca 20 litres of waste waters.


Indeed - what sounds like a simple to answer question is anything but.
If I charge my car during the day, I am probably using the electricity generated by my next door neighbours solar panels. At night, I am most likely using a mix of coal fired power station, nuclear, wind, and pumped storage. The actual CO2 footprint will vary depending on where you live, and even what the weather is (if your area has access to solar, wind, and hydro power).
Of course this all has to be taken into account for the electricity generated to run oil refineries too - it's a never ending calculation.
Keith B.
driving with the power of 15.667 kettles

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:30 am

At least here in Estonia it is pretty obvious, that EV-s have much higher CO2 footprint than average ICE car. 50 kg of CO2 per 100 km is ca double of amount of gasoline engine wastes even if to into account all CO2 that is dumped by oil wells, pipelines, refineries, gasoline transporting tankers and gas station network.

If to take into account construction of powerplants, equipment for plants, power grid, ditching the mining areas (peat releases lot of CO2 after ditching), then the CO2 emission is even higher for EV.

Solar power cells hardly produce enough eletricity to cover its construction costs (in Estonian conditions) and during the construction so much CO2 is released, that per energy production it is not so different than our oil shale plants. There is no clean electric energy. Nuclear plants release huge amount of CO2 also. And lots of highly toxic wastes too. The bluff of CO2 clean EV-s is possible only when share of EV-s is marginal. As soon as the share will be considerable, the rise of pollusion will be obvious.

HParkEV
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Emissions measurement - a non-hippy view

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:48 am

Kuuuurija wrote:At least here in Estonia it is pretty obvious, that EV-s have much higher CO2 footprint than average ICE car. 50 kg of CO2 per 100 km is ca double of amount of gasoline engine wastes even if to into account all CO2 that is dumped by oil wells, pipelines, refineries, gasoline transporting tankers and gas station network.

If to take into account construction of powerplants, equipment for plants, power grid, ditching the mining areas (peat releases lot of CO2 after ditching), then the CO2 emission is even higher for EV.

Solar power cells hardly produce enough eletricity to cover its construction costs (in Estonian conditions) and during the construction so much CO2 is released, that per energy production it is not so different than our oil shale plants. There is no clean electric energy. Nuclear plants release huge amount of CO2 also. And lots of highly toxic wastes too. The bluff of CO2 clean EV-s is possible only when share of EV-s is marginal. As soon as the share will be considerable, the rise of pollusion will be obvious.


I think your 50kg per 100km number is an estimate that is way on the high side... The numbers I have seen for Estonia (which is actually the worst country in Europe in terms of CO2 production per kWh) are about 1 kg per 1kWh. Considering the i uses on average about 16kWh to travel 100km, that should mean 16kg CO2 per 100km. That is comparable to what some ICE cars produce.
Estonia is definitely a special case in terms of the CO2 production!

http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/ ... -g-per-kwh
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