Global automakers to demo Combined Charging System at EVS26
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FiddlerJohn
Well-known member
Thanks for the posts Jon.Jon said:
There are two versions of this new standard, one like Europe, and the other with the top half like a J1772. Backward compatibility has been achieved in Europe where the system is based on the IEC 62196 Type 2. The harmonized electric vehicle charging solution is backward compatible with the J1772 connector standard in the U.S.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=35430
I have never seen a CHAdeMO charging station, but I hear there are many in Japan.
I hope this new standard makes it easy for cars with CHAdeMO to simply combine the J1772 and CHAdeMO inside the car cables and attach these old, now combined cables to this new standard connector and then upgrade the firmware if needed.
jjlink
Well-known member
I will be charging my i-MiEV along with a Leaf (not mine) at the opening ceremony of Northern California's first public DC fast charger (CHAdeMO).
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/04/350green-20120406.html
GREEN CARPET – "GAS HOSE/RIBBON CUTTING” EVENT
Stanford Shopping Center – 350 Green – Bay Area EV Supporters
When: Tuesday May 15, 4:30 PM – 6:00PM
Where: Stanford Shopping Center, 1st Level Parking Garage Next to Quarry Road
Bring: Your Electric Vehicle and Family
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=267&start=20
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/04/350green-20120406.html
GREEN CARPET – "GAS HOSE/RIBBON CUTTING” EVENT
Stanford Shopping Center – 350 Green – Bay Area EV Supporters
When: Tuesday May 15, 4:30 PM – 6:00PM
Where: Stanford Shopping Center, 1st Level Parking Garage Next to Quarry Road
Bring: Your Electric Vehicle and Family
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=267&start=20
Vike
Well-known member
I'm not exactly a fan of CHAdeMO, and I do think CCS is a smarter design, at least in principle. But it does irritate me to no end that the companies behind CCS waited until the Japanese started selling EVs in the US to come up with this "better idea", when the issue of DC fast charging and how best to handle it has been there to address for years. The Japanese deserve a lot of credit for just getting on with it. I don't see anything in CCS that couldn't have been done a few years ago, before the US market even got started. Arriving as it does now, it stinks of collusion in an effort to stall Asian EVs.
As a practical matter, there are no CCS cars or chargers out there yet, while CHAdeMO cars are being delivered and CHAdeMO chargers installed right NOW. I don't think anybody building quickcharge stations during the battery lifespan of EVs being sold today is going to do so without including CHAdeMO, since the majority of quickcharge-capable EVs will be CHAdeMO for a while. Down the road, I think it likely that CCS will be the dominant standard, but I'd expect to see CHAdeMO and CCS connectors to be available side by side at quickcharge stations (however many there may be) for years to come. If it turns out to be feasible to economically convert or adapt CHAdeMO cars to use CCS (I've heard nothing very promising on this point so far), then the phaseout of CHAdeMO in North America may proceed a little more quickly, but in that case it wouldn't be a problem.
Since it's going to come down to a numbers game, I think the biggest favor Mitsubishi and Nissan could do their present-day customers is stop making CHAdeMO an option and just put Level 3 chargers on every EV they sell to "seed" the market with as many CHAdeMO customers as possible. The larger the population, the better they'll be supported, one way or another.
On the other hand, to be brutally honest, if you're weighing the pros and cons of buying an EV, I wouldn't advise counting on any public charging infrastructure at all. I know I didn't - an EV is going to work for me even if I can only charge it at home in my garage. It will be better still if I can juice up away from home, but again, I'm not counting on it.
As a practical matter, there are no CCS cars or chargers out there yet, while CHAdeMO cars are being delivered and CHAdeMO chargers installed right NOW. I don't think anybody building quickcharge stations during the battery lifespan of EVs being sold today is going to do so without including CHAdeMO, since the majority of quickcharge-capable EVs will be CHAdeMO for a while. Down the road, I think it likely that CCS will be the dominant standard, but I'd expect to see CHAdeMO and CCS connectors to be available side by side at quickcharge stations (however many there may be) for years to come. If it turns out to be feasible to economically convert or adapt CHAdeMO cars to use CCS (I've heard nothing very promising on this point so far), then the phaseout of CHAdeMO in North America may proceed a little more quickly, but in that case it wouldn't be a problem.
Since it's going to come down to a numbers game, I think the biggest favor Mitsubishi and Nissan could do their present-day customers is stop making CHAdeMO an option and just put Level 3 chargers on every EV they sell to "seed" the market with as many CHAdeMO customers as possible. The larger the population, the better they'll be supported, one way or another.
On the other hand, to be brutally honest, if you're weighing the pros and cons of buying an EV, I wouldn't advise counting on any public charging infrastructure at all. I know I didn't - an EV is going to work for me even if I can only charge it at home in my garage. It will be better still if I can juice up away from home, but again, I'm not counting on it.
jray3
Well-known member
Vike said:
Maybe in flyover country,
but in the Puget Sound area and Portland, (and maybe EVen Californica), the EV community is feeling it's oats and public EVSE should continue to get political support. EAA members are using stations, showing up for ribbon cuttings, and SEVA has been a prime mover on sEVeral pieces of legislation over the past four years. I wouldn't be surprised if siting a new gas station becomes just as difficult as building a Wal Mart in the Emerald City before long. Plus in Oregon, EV's have a major thing going. It empowers people to refill their own cars! (yep, those mossbacks are so scared of gas that it's illegal to pump your own) :mrgreen:NYC is doing zip, zero, nadda, about EV charging. I once read a NYC "white paper" on the subject and the city basically said they were going to depend on early adopters to get the EV charging infrastructure up because of cost concerns.
The only ones available in Manhattan, that I have ever seen, are in pay parking garages. Any chargers in the outer boroughs are at the Nissan and Mitsubishi dealers, and they are not particularly easy to get at.
And when you get down to it, why should anybody take an interest in fueling my car besides me? When I drive my ICE, do I expect my supermarket or mall to make it convenient to fill up?? for free, no less?? No. So while there has been some "start-up" goodwill on the subject of charging, I predict that you will either charge at home (maybe work), and eventually larger gas stations will put in fast chargers...and charge you just much as when they sell you gasoline.
The only ones available in Manhattan, that I have ever seen, are in pay parking garages. Any chargers in the outer boroughs are at the Nissan and Mitsubishi dealers, and they are not particularly easy to get at.
And when you get down to it, why should anybody take an interest in fueling my car besides me? When I drive my ICE, do I expect my supermarket or mall to make it convenient to fill up?? for free, no less?? No. So while there has been some "start-up" goodwill on the subject of charging, I predict that you will either charge at home (maybe work), and eventually larger gas stations will put in fast chargers...and charge you just much as when they sell you gasoline.
Vike
Well-known member
jray3 said:Maybe in flyover country,
Good for Portland (and probably bits of CA, sure), but yeah, in most of the country, EV infrastructure's going to take a while. Don't be too disdainful of flyover country, though - it's dotted with exactly the sort of middle-sized cities (I'm in Albuquerque) that are perfect for EVs. Large urban areas really need charging infrastructure for EVs to work well - there are just too many times a typical driver needs to drive distances that are out of EV range unless there's a charger at the destination (or a quick charger somewhere on the way). Albuquerque's maybe 15-20 miles border to border, max, and near zero sprawl - there's just nowhere to go that's out of range, even for an i-MiEV, while leaving town's both unnecessary and pretty much out of the question, EV-wise. I'm sure there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of small cities, college towns and the like, that are similarly situated, and that's where EVs would really shine today.
On the other hand, say you're in ABQ and you want to hop up to Santa Fe. Well, that's over 60 miles one way, so for now you get in your other car - or the RailRunner commuter train. This is an interesting example of how Level 3 can be a game-changer, though - put quickcharge stations in ABQ and SFe, and one or two quickcharge stations on I-25 between the cities (and MAINTAIN THEM so EV drivers can count on their availability), and every EV now available could make that trip, no sweat (with a stop for a snack halfway). I'm not counting on being able to do that any time soon, as I said - but it sure would be nice to have the option some day, which is why I've ordered my i-MiEV with CHAdeMO.
Vike
Well-known member
fjpod said:
I've been wondering about this pricing issue. I view quick-charging as an occasional tool for infrequent range-extended trips (e.g., visiting between cities in a region), in which case price isn't really relevant. But what would a station owner have to charge for use of a Level 3 charger to make it worth the investment? A typical gasoline transaction is in the $25-50 range, but of course the lion's share of that goes to the gasoline supplier; in any case, if you price Level 3 at $25/charge, you'll get just about zero customers. So how many customers would you have at $10/charge? At $5? Government subsidies can get the ball rolling, perhaps, but at some point the infrastructure has to pay its own freight, or it's going to be pretty thin. At $10/charge, Level 3 isn't going to make much sense for regular use - that's roughly gasoline pricing for an equivalent class car (e.g., $10 = 3 gallons x 30 mpg = 90 miles), but at $5/charge, after deducting the energy cost, is that going to bring in enough revenue to pay for acquisition and service of a $10-20k charger?
Well, from what I understand, right now, a level 3 charger costs $40,000USD. That's a fairly large investment. I'm sure it may come down some, but your local gasoline station is not going to want to put one in...UNLESS: a)they can charge you sufficiently to pay the electric bill and pay off the investment in the charger b)they want to draw you into their convenience store/snack shop/gift shop/restaurant. And they would have to charge you by how much juice you take. So, our iMiev batteries are 16kw, a Tesla may be way more, you get the idea. (actually, I don't think Tesla has a fast charge option right now).
Vike
Well-known member
fjpod said:
1. Actually, Nissan is marketing a CHAdeMO charging station for $10k. They're hoping to sell a couple thousand of 'em in the next two years:
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/17/nissans-9-900-quick-charger-a-game-changer/
2. Tesla can quick charge, but it uses a proprietary charger, not CHAdeMO (nor, obviously, the as-yet-vaporware SAE CCS):
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/bucking-trends-tesla-goes-it-alone-on-plug-design/
Yes, Tesla is quite mad. As one wag put it:
CHAdeMO is Beta
SAE CCS is VHS
Tesla Supercharger is LaserDisc
Beta's OK with me - I have no regrets about my several years of Betamax ownership, and in this case (to carry on the analogy), I want to buy a VCR now and VHS is only a plan, not a product. CHAdeMO may not be ideal and it may not be the long term future of quick-charging in the U.S., but I still think it beats having no quick-charger port at all.
And I still say Nissan and Mitsubishi need to re-think their strategy on Level 3 and make CHAdeMO STANDARD, and NOT an extra-cost OPTION. Sure, adjust prices as needed, but every car they sell without CHAdeMO is another nail in CHAdeMO's coffin. This would also save consumers from making what I think will prove to be a costly "false economy" mistake - I've already seen one i-MiEV put up on eBay by a CA buyer who regretted buying his car w/o CHAdeMO, especially when he saw the quick-charging stations planned for his area.
jennrod12
Well-known member
Well, I'm glad we were able to buy our i-MiEV without the extra expense of a quick-charge port because we didn't buy it for long-range driving and don't want to have to pay for that. Adding quick-charging would not substantially change the amount we drive the car. We're happy to run about in town and wait several years for standards to emerge and better options to come out.
Jenn
Jenn
Vike
Well-known member
jennrod12 said:
Understood. I plan to use my i-MiEV exactly the same way, but before Mitsubishi unbundled CHAdeMO from the SE Premium (an option previously available only to fleet buyers), I was hesitant about getting the ES (the SE Premium just upped the ante too much for my tastes - if I was willing to spend that much I'd have bought a LEAF). Despite my intentions for strictly runabout use and the reality that there are no Level 3 charging stations planned for our area at this time, getting the car w/o quick-charge made me uncomfortable, as I plan to keep it at least for the life of the battery (cars last a long time in New Mexico), and a lot could change in the rest of this decade. Fortunately, Mitsu came to their senses and offered the QuickCharge package on the ES for non-commercial buyers, so I put in my order.
For my own purposes, I'd argue it's a pretty small incremental expense that might have an outsize impact on the car's utility within its likely lifespan. On balance, I was more willing to risk paying for a "white elephant" CHAdeMO port than owning a car unable to utilize available charging infrastructure that would let it "stretch" its range a bit, either for a busy day shuttling around town or even a short day trip.
Viewed more strategically, as I said, the fewer CHAdeMO-equipped cars Nissan and Mitsubishi (and perhaps Fiat and Subaru?) sell, the more trouble Nissan's going to have selling Level 3 charging stations, leading to a Betamax-style death spiral. It would be better to keep CHAdeMO in the mix to support this first generation of EVs. GM's insistence that we "embargo" CHAdeMO is laughably self-serving from someone who's not even selling a pure BEV (Volts don't have enough battery capacity for Level 3 to be of use), but Japanese manufacturers could face much the same outcome if they don't build enough of a customer base for CHAdeMO chargers to make them worth serving.
Vike
Well-known member
fjpod said:
To be perfectly honest, I could do the same for my daily commute. :mrgreen:
A bunch of disparate thoughts -
For the forseeable future, the Leaf and the iMiEV and upcoming EVs fill the needs of a commuter or suburban runabout traveling less than about 60 miles one-way, provided Level 1 or Level 2 charging is available at the destination. No need for Level 3.
If the EV were my only vehicle in the house, then Level 3 charging ability might be of interest as I would, indeed, be making longer trips with the car; however, the uncertainty of being able to access that Level 3 charger at exactly the time I needed it during that trip would stop me from anything but casual non-time-critical excursions with the car.
For long trips with an EV the only near-term solution I see (other than pulling one's own auxiliary genset behind the EV on a trailer) is the option of a larger battery pack like Tesla is marketing. I'm hoping that other manufacturers offer such options. Battery swapping (like New York and Philadelphia taxis did in 75 seconds in the 1890s) is not on the horizon as the manufacturers show no inclination to standardize.
Level 3 makes sense for a fleet-operator running EVs 24/7.
I'm extremely upset with the anti-CHAdeMO posturing by the domestic and European manufacturers and am really pissed off at the final CHAdeMO-incompatible configuration of CCS. I haven't looked at the interface yet, but I would hope adapters (going in either direction) would be feasible.
I've been driving EVs for years and all my friends have learned to simply let me plug into 120vac at their homes (primarily not because I was range-limited but because I didn't want a high depth-of discharge of my lead-acid batteries). Nowadays, with the iMiEV, the few longer trips I've taken to distant friends (>40 miles) I've simply taken my SPX charger with me and plugged into their dryer outlets). No big deal. We are lucky here in the SF Bay Area that public Level 2 charging is widespread; however, availability of these chargers might become iffy as EVs proliferate. A cultural shift will need to take place so that, for example, the EV commuter doesn't hog a public charging station all day.
High-power electrical consumers fall into completely different utility rate categories - these can be very high and based not only on kWHr consumption but fixed rates for peak-power availability as well. Pricing might be prohibitive. As I envision a half-dozen Level 3 cords available for use at one location then perhaps some type of a self-contained onsite energy storage system would need to be installed to handle the peak demand (hmmm, another product opportunity…).
BTW, my Mitsu Level 1 charger is taking care of most of our iMiEV's needs and the SPX Level 2 only gets used occasionally.
For the forseeable future, the Leaf and the iMiEV and upcoming EVs fill the needs of a commuter or suburban runabout traveling less than about 60 miles one-way, provided Level 1 or Level 2 charging is available at the destination. No need for Level 3.
If the EV were my only vehicle in the house, then Level 3 charging ability might be of interest as I would, indeed, be making longer trips with the car; however, the uncertainty of being able to access that Level 3 charger at exactly the time I needed it during that trip would stop me from anything but casual non-time-critical excursions with the car.
For long trips with an EV the only near-term solution I see (other than pulling one's own auxiliary genset behind the EV on a trailer) is the option of a larger battery pack like Tesla is marketing. I'm hoping that other manufacturers offer such options. Battery swapping (like New York and Philadelphia taxis did in 75 seconds in the 1890s) is not on the horizon as the manufacturers show no inclination to standardize.
Level 3 makes sense for a fleet-operator running EVs 24/7.
I'm extremely upset with the anti-CHAdeMO posturing by the domestic and European manufacturers and am really pissed off at the final CHAdeMO-incompatible configuration of CCS. I haven't looked at the interface yet, but I would hope adapters (going in either direction) would be feasible.
I've been driving EVs for years and all my friends have learned to simply let me plug into 120vac at their homes (primarily not because I was range-limited but because I didn't want a high depth-of discharge of my lead-acid batteries). Nowadays, with the iMiEV, the few longer trips I've taken to distant friends (>40 miles) I've simply taken my SPX charger with me and plugged into their dryer outlets). No big deal. We are lucky here in the SF Bay Area that public Level 2 charging is widespread; however, availability of these chargers might become iffy as EVs proliferate. A cultural shift will need to take place so that, for example, the EV commuter doesn't hog a public charging station all day.
High-power electrical consumers fall into completely different utility rate categories - these can be very high and based not only on kWHr consumption but fixed rates for peak-power availability as well. Pricing might be prohibitive. As I envision a half-dozen Level 3 cords available for use at one location then perhaps some type of a self-contained onsite energy storage system would need to be installed to handle the peak demand (hmmm, another product opportunity…).
BTW, my Mitsu Level 1 charger is taking care of most of our iMiEV's needs and the SPX Level 2 only gets used occasionally.
I'm also not enamored of the plan to choke the chademo to death, but I only envision fast chargers at rather large gas stations, and I am betting that the charger will support two or three plugs...beta, VHS and reel-to-reel.
I agree with all of Joe's thoughts. Personally, Level 3 charging is something I don't forsee *ever* needing - I'm much more concerned with battery life than with the ability to quick charge the car (and cook the battery) so I can use it for tasks which we currently use one of our other ICE powered cars to do . . . . besides, they each need to be started at least once every 5 or 6 weeks so the gas doesn't go stale or their batteries don't run down
My mother lives outside Seattle and sent me a newspaper clipping from the Times which shows that they will soon have enough charging stations in operation to be able to drive an EV down I-5 from Canada to Mexico - A combination of Level 3 stations, 480 volt level 2 stations and lots of 240 Level 2 stations. Also lots of places going east on I-90, highway 2 and east of Portland on 84. I suppose one or more of these stations may make longer commutes for some drivers feasable, but we just never even thought about long commutes when we bought this car . . . . largely because we never make any. If we go out of state, it won't be in the i . . . . and that's just fine
Don
My mother lives outside Seattle and sent me a newspaper clipping from the Times which shows that they will soon have enough charging stations in operation to be able to drive an EV down I-5 from Canada to Mexico - A combination of Level 3 stations, 480 volt level 2 stations and lots of 240 Level 2 stations. Also lots of places going east on I-90, highway 2 and east of Portland on 84. I suppose one or more of these stations may make longer commutes for some drivers feasable, but we just never even thought about long commutes when we bought this car . . . . largely because we never make any. If we go out of state, it won't be in the i . . . . and that's just fine
Don
+1Don said:I agree with all of Joe's thoughts. Personally, Level 3 charging is something I don't forsee *ever* needing - I'm much more concerned with battery life than with the ability to quick charge the car (and cook the battery) so I can use it for tasks which we currently use one of our other ICE powered cars to do . . . . besides, they each need to be started at least once every 5 or 6 weeks so the gas doesn't go stale or their batteries don't run down
My mother lives outside Seattle and sent me a newspaper clipping from the Times which shows that they will soon have enough charging stations in operation to be able to drive an EV down I-5 from Canada to Mexico - A combination of Level 3 stations, 480 volt level 2 stations and lots of 240 Level 2 stations. Also lots of places going east on I-90, highway 2 and east of Portland on 84. I suppose one or more of these stations may make longer commutes for some drivers feasable, but we just never even thought about long commutes when we bought this car . . . . largely because we never make any. If we go out of state, it won't be in the i . . . . and that's just fine
Don
