$13,000 to $16,000 to replace battery

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acensor

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Messages
371
Location
Southern Oregon
We were just on the verge of committing to buy an MiEV.
Mitsubishi has just put in a $10,000 rebate on instock 2012's... So that's a real draw.

As you all know it is widely believed that within 10 years it can lose 20 to 30% of its range, and even within the 8 year warrenty that's not covered by warrenty (apparently excluded.. considered I guess "normal wear".)

Since we would expect to keep it for 10 years or more (our present cars are 14 and 10 years old and are still fine running vehicles) my wife asked me to check what a battery replacement would actually cost.
I called the Mitsubishi parts department of our local dealer.
He looked up the part (the batteries are an assembly replaced as a whole unit apparently).
Said he'd have to call me back.

Called back after talking to his factory rep and said it would cost $13,000 to $16,000 to replace. He did of course point out that if it failed for factory/product defect it would out to 8 years and 100,000 miles be covered under warrenty, and that if it was damaged in an accident your insurance would cover it.
But it still leaves that shadow over the purchase if thinking ahead.

Are --
a) Any of you shocked hearing this?
b) Do any you have any optimism that by the time you consider new packs the situation could be better? Or for that matter that it could be worse?
c) If you had known this before you purchased might it have changed your decision?

Darn, I really like the car and the idea but that's a bit of a show stopper, or at least a "think twice" issue.
 
Where do you hear about the 10K rebate from Mitsu. I might buy another one if that is the case.
I know half of the car cost is in the battery so, it is not shocking at all.
Who know what will happen 10/yr. The battery technology change rapidly. By the time, we need to replace, we will deal with it then.

Last year I paid around $4K in gas and car maintenance. Driving the MiEV in 10 years already recoupe my costs.
 
No, this is not shocking - its simply the cost of an electric vehicle at this moment. I looked into building my own EV before buying the i-MiEV and a complete set of LiFPo batteries would have cost around $8k, with the BMS (battery management system) another $2.5k. Basically, about the same price - Mitsubishi adds in the solid casing structure and installation and other assorted cost to come up with that figure.

I don't drive electric to save money, although it does save me plenty and I also got a huge chunk of the cost taken care of by federal programs. I drive electric because its the right thing to do. I've read for many years articles about the damage of petrolium extraction around the world. Events like the DeepWater Horizon in the Gulf of Mexico happen routinely in places like Nigeria where the locals can't even fish to live anymore.

This is the first vehicle I've ever owned that I actually feel good about driving. I gave up motorcycling because using petrolium for recreation became to much of a crisis of my conscience. I used the money for my bike to help buy my EV. So, when it comes time to replace the batteries - I'll be more than happy to pay whatever the price is to replace them. Knowing full well that I'm no longer beholden to the petrolumn companies is priceless to me.
 
Not shocking; exactly as expected. The battery cost closely approximates the cost differential between an EV and an ICE car.
The iMiEV battery is one reason I chose this car over a LEAF.
http://www.gs-yuasa.com/us/technic/vol5/pdf/05_1_021.pdf
Since our pack uses large prismatics rather than pouches or small cylindrical cells, the battery pack should be very rebuildable with off-the-shelf battery cells from a supplier like CALB or Winston. They don't currently offer something in our exact form factor, but here's one that comes close and should fit in the box.
http://www.calibpower.com/ProductDetails.aspx?p=2&id=1 (look at the SE40AHA)
The chemistry and ratings are slightly different, but as our cells are always undercharged, a replacement CALB 40 AH cell running under our factory BMS would be under similar conditions as my friends in the conversion hobby have been doing for years.
This is just a 'quick n dirty' example. Our BMS could be rescaled with resistors, etc. to run different cells than stock.

With 33,000 iMiev sold globally, and most of those long before any US models were sold, our Asian and European cousins should have cracked the pack replacement problem well before we need to.
 
In 2002, I bought a used 2000 Honda Insight hybrid. At that time, the replacement cost for its 0.9 kWh NiMH battery pack was around $3,400. So the current price of the much larger 16 kWh i-MiEV battery pack is much less expensive/kWh than that of the Insight around 10 years ago, especially when considering inflation. I can now buy a 3rd-party Insight battery pack with 25% greater capacity for around $2,000. So I expect the price of a replacement i-MiEV battery pack to decrease and its capacity to increase in a similar fashion. Just as with my Insight, I expect 3rd-party battery pack rebuilders to fill the i-MiEV battery pack case with higher-capacity cells for a total cost much less than the current battery pack cost.

Honda replaced my Insight's battery pack twice under warranty. Honda's less-than-optimal battery management system resulting in the early death of many Insight battery packs. Owners have learned how to manage their battery packs better, so my third battery pack remains healthier than either of the first two 5 years after it was replaced. I expect it to last many more years.

So if the i-MiEV's battery management system results in shorter than expected battery pack life, I am confident that Mitsubishi will replace it under warranty just as Honda did. And after my battery pack warranty has expired, I expect 3rd-party replacement battery packs to be available at an affordable price just as with my Insight.
 
jray3 said:
Not shocking; exactly as expected. The battery cost closely approximates the cost differential between an EV and an ICE car.
The iMiEV battery is one reason I chose this car over a LEAF.


What is the diffenrences between IMiEV battery and the Leaf? Please elaborate.

Thanks
 
[/quote]
What is the diffenrences between IMiEV battery and the Leaf? Please elaborate.
Thanks[/quote]

The iMiEV battery has a thermal management system that measures temperature and cools or heats the pack as needed. The LEAF simply has a fan that stirs the hot air around inside the sealed box. Of course, this means that the LEAF isn't necessarily ruined if flood waters rise higher than 19". Our battery packs flood through the ventilation ducting at that point.

Elon Musk of Telsa was more succint.
Musk reportedly said that Nissan uses a “much more primitive level of technology.”
Musk believes that because Nissan's battery pack is passively air cooled instead of actively liquid cooled—like Tesla's battery packs—the LEAF's battery temperature will be “all over the place,” and result in “huge degradation.” In addition, Musk reportedly believes that the LEAF will not be able to operate in cold environments and will “shut off” in hot environments. In the past, Nissan has said they are extremely confident that the LEAF batteries will perform reasonably well in both hot and cold environments, but that it will likely see a performance reduction to some degree when operating at extremes.

In a LEAF battery the metal-cased cells are pancaked atop each other, meaning that, since heat rises, the uppermost cell will be much hotter than it's bottom bretheren, and those will differ from the cells that are stacked on their end. This shoehorning technique is more akin to a garage conversion than design-from-scratch EV.

By using 48 modules in series, each with 2 cells in parallel and 2 in series, the LEAF places more complex demands on it's Battery Management System, as cells that are placed in parallel are more likely to get out of balance than a straight series connection. I also believe that Nissan pushes their cells much harder, but am out of time to document that complaint...(for now)

Here's a blurb on the lawsuit against Nissan for their puffed up marketing claims...
http://www.greenpatentblog.com/2012/10/10/class-action-charges-nissan-with-leaf-greenwash/

Here's a very good study on the LEAF battery. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss
 
It's worth noting that before I got the car, my dealer made me sign papers from Mitsubishi stating that I was aware of battery degradation and the current replacement costs. Since this is part of the sales process, I don't imagine that anyone was shocked about it. (Also my i-MiEV is a lease, so unless I buy it at the end of the lease I won't have to worry about it anyway.)
 
Replacement cost of the battery pack really isn't anything to worry about, IMO. I'm not losing any sleep over it anyway. If it goes bad in the first 8 years, the warranty will cover it. After 8 years, if you were to buy one yourself, the price would likely by 1/4 or less than it is now - What did a 40 inch LCD TV cost 8 years ago? . . . . and today?

Don
 
nsps said:
(Also my i-MiEV is a lease, so unless I buy it at the end of the lease I won't have to worry about it anyway.)

Just curious: What's your lease terms? Monthly, initial payment, ... 36 months I assume ..,
and most important what's the buyout cost, and are there some gotcha's of extra charges if you turn it in at the end of the lease period?
(For example, that they look at "the value under current market conditions" and charge you extra if fair market value is low?
That seems to be the leaser's way to protect themselves against the chance of severe depreciation (as could happen in 3 years if newer electrics have twice the range, or word is getting out to used-buyers that they could be looking at $13K for a new battery 5 years after buying that used EV) at YOUR expense .

Alex
 
Don said:
Replacement cost of the battery pack really isn't anything to worry about, IMO. ...... If it goes bad in the first 8 years, the warranty will cover it. After 8 years, if you were to buy one yourself, the price would likely by 1/4 or less than it is now - What did a 40 inch LCD TV cost 8 years ago? . . . . and today?
Don

Hopefully you're right. Chances are IMO fair that by 8 years out either OEM or third party batteries will be significantly lower. There's even a chance that they can be replaced with cheaper and BETTER batteries. But I would bet with fair confidence that we're not going to see the sort of dramatic drop in costs and increases in performance we see in 8 years of LCD evolution.
Those are quite different types of issues that constrain the prices in those two fields.
If I had to go on record (I guess that's what I'm doing right now ;) ) I'll say the most drop in price we'll see in 8 years could be 40%.
On the other hand, if fuel at the pump goes up to $6 or more per gallon there'll be 6 months waiting lines for folks desperate to buy any EV and demand for batteries could outstrip supply and drive battery prices through the roof. But in that case, anyone who purchased and EV today would still be delighted to have it, older battery and all, even if they've lost 25% of the original ranges.

Alex
 
acensor said:
nsps said:
(Also my i-MiEV is a lease, so unless I buy it at the end of the lease I won't have to worry about it anyway.)

Just curious: What's your lease terms? Monthly, initial payment, ... 36 months I assume ..,
and most important what's the buyout cost, and are there some gotcha's of extra charges if you turn it in at the end of the lease period?
(For example, that they look at "the value under current market conditions" and charge you extra if fair market value is low?
That seems to be the leaser's way to protect themselves against the chance of severe depreciation (as could happen in 3 years if newer electrics have twice the range, or word is getting out to used-buyers that they could be looking at $13K for a new battery 5 years after buying that used EV) at YOUR expense .

Alex

There's a thread where people discuss their purchase and lease deals, but this is the deal for my SE with premium package:
Zero down, no first payment (after instant rebate).
$155/month 24 (23 billed) months, 12,000 miles/year.
no disposition fee
$24,638 residual

The residual means I'm not going to purchase the vehicle barring some dramatic shifts in the market, but I'm basically getting a new, zero-emissions car for the cost of my ICE's gas, oil and maintenance cost, so I'm happy.

Did you mention this "value under current market conditions" thing in another thread? I'm not sure where you got it. There's nothing about it in my lease — just the standard stuff about excess mileage beyond the allotted 24,000, plus repairs to damage, extension fees, etc. I honestly don't know why anyone would sign a lease like that unless they didn't read it.
 
You wrote IN PART --
"Did you mention this 'value under current market conditions' thing in another thread? I'm not sure where you got it. There's nothing about it in my lease — just the standard stuff about excess mileage beyond the allotted 24,000, plus repairs to damage, extension fees, etc. I honestly don't know why anyone would sign a lease like that unless they didn't read it."

It's just something I thought I read or heard somewhere. Can't swear it's true, but almost sure I saw one like that. And people do sign stuff without reading and/or without understanding.

And, yes, now I see why your lease can make some sense, despite the fairly obvious disincentive to buyout at the stated price. Wonder if near the end they might turn around when you go to turn it in and say "how would you like to buy it for $12,000?" (or whatever)
if the market value (and value to them) at the time is low?
Of you make them an offer<g>. I've never heard of that.

Alex
 
I guess it's known to happen in some cases, but in others the lease company sticks to the residual and takes the car for wholesale or whatever. I've got a lot of time before anything happens anyhow.
 
At lease end, I'm sure it won't hurt to negotiate with the lease company. What's the worst they can say? "No." BFD. Just be prepared and make your case. Have NADA/Blackbook/Bluebook values at your fingertips. Have recently-sold vehicle values at the ready. And don't be afraid to escalate. We Americans LOVE to complain (or so says my Filipino wife). :mrgreen:
 
jray3 said:
...Since our pack uses large prismatics rather than pouches or small cylindrical cells, the battery pack should be very rebuildable with off-the-shelf battery cells from a supplier like CALB or Winston. They don't currently offer something in our exact form factor, but here's one that comes close and should fit in the box.
http://www.calibpower.com/ProductDetails.aspx?p=2&id=1 (look at the SE40AHA)
The chemistry and ratings are slightly different, but as our cells are always undercharged, a replacement CALB 40 AH cell running under our factory BMS would be under similar conditions as my friends in the conversion hobby have been doing for years.
This is just a 'quick n dirty' example. Our BMS could be rescaled with resistors, etc. to run different cells than stock.

This cell seems no adequate. Different chemistry and voltage. Nominal voltage, 3,2V; charging cut-off, 3,6V... and our BMS's cut at... 3,95V?

Nominal capacity is lower, also, and is not a good idea to put cells of different capacities in series (capacity of the pack would be the same as the lower capacity cell)

Anyway, replace a unique damaged cell seems not to be very difficult. What (crazy idea) if we put 20-25 cheap 18650 Li-ion cells in parallel to replace a original 50Ah cell?
 
I have been looking into the CALB 60 AH and thinking of putting them in parallel - but ...

CALB 3.2 V I need to put 104 CALB in parallel to the 88 Yuasa. That is not a good idea - and dont mention the battery management unit.

"Unplugging" the whole BMU from the CANBUS und booting another or fake BMU together with 104 CALB cells might work. Without the CANBUS our BMU will keep its feet up and does not touch the wires. Now our secondary battery with its own fake BMU can take over spending us almost 20 kWh that is even more kilometers than the primary battery.

For people willing to build their own electric car from scratch it it no problem replacing the original battery with something different. The result might be another battery with its own charger that could do tricks the original charger cannot.

When you are using your i-MiEV as two seater you have a lot of space in your trunk and some 250 kilometers or 160 miles of range would be nice. :)
 
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