Barebones new Leaf undercuts i-MiEV pricing

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Vike

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If you've had friends sort of interested in the i-MiEV but wish it were a better deal, that might not be long coming, now that Nissan's announced pricing for the new 2013 Leaf S:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/nissan-slashing-price-leaf-battery-car-1B7972322

Nissan basically took a more "i-MiEV"-like approach to equipping the S, eschewing such nonsense as $1k LED headlights, a nav system on a car that can't leave town, and the flaky wireless CarWings system that seems to have made as many enemies as friends. At less than $29k, the Leaf S now beats the i-MiEV on price as well as everything else (except maximum cargo capacity, for those that need to move large boxes). We know that the i-MiEV has several technical advantages, ranging from the convenient (a more reliable RR meter) to the important (active thermal management of the battery), but from the perspective of most buyers these are technical arcana. Let's be realistic - put a Leaf S next to an i-MiEV ES, and who's going to pay more for the i?

Given that, once the Leaf S is generally available, I expect the double-digit U.S. i-MiEV monthly sales to date to more or less crash to zero until Mitsubishi lowers their price. Recouping development costs is now out the window - the only question now is whether Mitsubishi can sell the cars for enough to cover marginal manufacturing costs. If not, we may be seeing the i move to fire sale status in the very near future - watch this space, as they say.

It's a pity - I think Mitsubishi could have exploited its competitors' guilded lily pricing (a $40k Focus? Really?) to move a lot more EVs in 2012 if they'd just had the courage of their convictions and actively marketed their product. That window's now closed, and unless Mitsubishi has a secret plan for radically lowering their costs, I'm beginning to understand why their public comments have shifted to emphasize PHEVs.

Fortunately, with the Leaf S and Smart ForTwo ED headed for general availability, EV buyers more price-sensitive than Tesla customers will continue to have affordable choices in 2013 and hopefully beyond. I don't regret buying my i-MiEV, but I'm sorry it won't have more company on the road. My only real concern right now is that the failure of such a key piece of Mitsu's electrification initiative may finally take them out of the U.S. market altogether. That would be a serious inconvenience.
 
Boy that's some price drop and from the article, it appears most of the savings comes from moving production from Japan to the U.S. I wonder if Mitsu can do the same, it has a plant in Illinois but doesn't build the MiEV there.

I see this as mixed news. I'm happy at any development that increases the sale of ev's, any ev's. But it's disappointing that this will harm sales of the MiEV. You have to hand it to Nissan, it clearly understands the U.S. market much better than Mitsubishi. I expect it will promote the 2013 Leaf much more than it did the 2012 version and sales should take off. Good for them, good for the planet. But unless Mitsu finds a way to sell the MiEV for $25,000 or less, I think it's done, in the U.S. at least. Oh well.......
 
When I read yesterday about the significant Leaf price decrease at InsideEVs, I thought that this would make it almost impossible for the i-MiEV to compete assuming that Mitsubishi has insufficient margin available to reduce the i-MiEV's dollar price. The ES is already "decontented" about as much as possible unlike the pre-2013 Leaf. The strong yen has probably made it difficult for Mitsubishi to reduce dollar prices much although the yen has weakened over 10% recently which could help.

If you were an EV customer when the 2013 Leaf S becomes available, would you still buy an i-MiEV? I still prefer the i-MiEV's size and weight, but the Leaf S seems to offer more value for the dollar than the i-MiEV ES. It will be interesting to learn of Mitsubishi's response.
 
tonymil said:
Boy that's some price drop and from the article, it appears most of the savings comes from moving production from Japan to the U.S. I wonder if Mitsu can do the same, it has a plant in Illinois but doesn't build the MiEV there.
There were definite savings from moving car and battery production stateside, but they also took out a lot of content, as I mentioned. Mitsu's problem, as mentioned elsewhere here already, is that the ES is already just "nicely equipped" (i.e., stripped down to the level of the Nissan Leaf S) - there's nothing you can take out without making the car undesirable, and none of it could save that much anyway. Sadly, it sounds like MMNA is turning its back on the American i-MiEV as an experiment gone awry, so I don't see any way they would invest in manufacturing capacity stateside for a car they wouldn't dream of selling in an ICE configuration. They'll have to reduce the price now (I've seen suggestions in this forum of a $4k cut, which sounds about right), but if that takes it below commercial viability, I think our cars are going to be collectors' items (or EV Edsels, take your pick).

Still, like a lot of you I'm sure, none of this makes me regret my decision. The truth is that I like my little 'lectric beetle; I think if I'd waited to buy a Leaf this year, I'd always have wondered if I shouldn't have gotten the i when it was available. Of course, I'm saying this before having to deal with a dearth of parts and/or service for a car that sold only a few examples per state. As long as Mitsubishi remains in the U.S. market, I figure it shouldn't get too bad, so fingers crossed for the Outlander PHEV (or something) to lift Mitsu out of the blahs.
 
Our main reason for buying the iMiev over the Leaf was price. There were a few other items I liked better about the iMiev, but then again, there were a few I liked better about the Leaf. At the same price, the Leaf is the winner, hands down.

Mitsubishi has to salvage something out of this, but to do so they've got to reduce the price significantly. I don't think $4k is enough, maybe $6k, otherwise it's not big enough a difference for a potential buyer to forgo a Leaf (that is a better vehicle, with better support, long-term parts, etc.). Of course, then you've got this "race to the bottom" which if it goes wrong could tarnish the Mitsubishi name.
 
danpatgal said:
Of course, then you've got this "race to the bottom" which if it goes wrong could tarnish the Mitsubishi name.

You mean, tarnish it more than it is? :roll:

Mitsu either has to lower the price or drop the MiEV in the U.S. I think $25,000 would work. At that price they can advertise the car's net price as $17,500. It would be the only all-electric below $20,000. But, can they do it? I hope so.
 
I do not think they will discontinue i-MiEV as in my opinion was never intended to be mass produced car. They will continue to sell small number, gain experience, this car is also ZEV quota car. i-MiEV is around for some time already so cutting after a year is very unlikely, Price must and will be adjusted.
 
mitsu5 said:
I do not think they will discontinue i-MiEV as in my opinion was never intended to be mass produced car. They will continue to sell small number, gain experience, this car is also ZEV quota car. i-MiEV is around for some time already so cutting after a year is very unlikely, Price must and will be adjusted.
OK, this is an interesting point - it's no secret that Mitsu's not spending another dime on a new version, but yes, they may indeed price it wherever they need to in order to make their ZEV quota in CA, as that may be their most cost effective option. What that would mean for sales elsewhere in the U.S., where per-vehicle losses would not be balanced by such benefits, is hard to say - could the i-MiEV be the only EV to retreat from nationwide distribution to transition into being yet another "compliance car"? I sure hope not.

Of course, if Mitsu abandons the U.S. market altogether, all this is moot :(

So still rooting for the Outlander PHEV . . .
 
danpatgal said:
Mitsubishi has to salvage something out of this, but to do so they've got to reduce the price significantly. I don't think $4k is enough, maybe $6k, otherwise it's not big enough a difference for a potential buyer to forgo a Leaf
I'm not so sure about that. At such prices, Mitsu's going to be losing real money per unit to buy themselves ZEV quota in CA so they can stay in the U.S. Volume sales are no longer part of the plan (especially considering 2012 results). There might be just enough buyers attracted by the i's mini-cute form factor and uber-green cred to reach the desired numbers, so no reason to sell any cheaper than they must to attain those anemic results. Don't forget, in CA the extra state subsidy could make it the cheapest car in the Mitsu lineup, and in this scenario competitiveness elsewhere doesn't really matter. Realistically, I think the dream is dead, which is why the execs talk so openly about shifting electrification strategy from BEV to PHEV.
 
The problem is, PHEV's are even more expensive and have less of a return on investment for consumers. The Ford C-Max Energi, for example, costs $3,000 more than the i, and only has 1/3 of the electric range. Although, it does get 43 mpg and 600 miles per tank. I think Ford should trim the car down, much the same that Nissan is doing, and instead invest that money in a larger battery. They would really have something if they can beat the Volt on electric range without a huge increase in price. But, being able to do that is much harder than to make a high-mileage pure EV. The i and now the LEAF are both cheaper than the C-max Energi or Volt, which is exactly where the price needs to be. People have a hard time with externalized costs, which is why electrification is becoming difficult. An EV has very little externalized cost, but a high sticker price, whereas gas-powered cars have a lower sticker price and a high externalized cost that doesn't get factored in (gasoline's own externalized costs, oil changes and maintenance on the car, etc.). If gasoline had its externalized costs rolled into the price per gallon, dealers would have a tough time selling the Prius or even the Volt because gas would be too expensive. EV sales would explode. This isn't happening because most consumers think, "Why buy an EV for an extra $5,000 when I can buy a Prius that gets 50 mpg? It'll take forever to break even." True, a high-gas-mileage car vs. an EV is a tough comparison, but externalized costs that just aren't there for the EV still make the comparison favorable for EV's. Oil changes alone for the Prius cost nearly $4,000 over 8 years, not to mention the price of gas itself, and the effects gasoline has on the environment. The fact that an EV can nearly pay for its sticker price over its life is a feat in itself, but the often overlooked flip side is, gas-powered cars ROI is virtually non-existent. If there were serious pressure on the government to end tax breaks and spending on oil, or at least bring it way down, things could be very different. Personally, I think no fossil fuel should be receiving any subsidies because they are all mature fuel sources, whereas renewables are still fairly new and growing, so they need rebates and incentives to keep growing.

I guess it is up to EV advocates and owners to pick up where the manufacturers have left off in advertisement and public knowledge. Get people in the cars, get them informed with CORRECT information and the new mindset that comes with comparing gas to electric, and if electric cars don't work for them, at least get them to get a PHEV. PHEV's should only fill in the voids that pure EV's cannot fill. If someone buys a PHEV where an EV could easily work for them, I respect it as their decision, but they should know that a better solution is available should they change their mind.

I'm trying to talk my parents into getting a C-max Energi because it is the closest I can get them towards a plug-in car. I'm personally still buying the i. I had a second thought about the new LEAF, but I'm still going with Mitsubishi for the public exposure to electric cars. The i will turn more heads than a LEAF will, especially since the i is virtually nonexistent in my area, and people have heard about the LEAF already.


Sorry for the mess of text. Hopefully I have some good points and I'm not completely off-topic.
 
PV1 said:
... gas-powered cars ROI is virtually non-existent. I think no fossil fuel should be receiving any subsidies because they are all mature fuel sources, whereas renewables are still fairly new and growing, so they need rebates and incentives to keep growing.
I totally agree. We're so stuck in comparing a gas car with an electric because we don't have any visibility, social acceptance or dialogue about the external costs of fossil fuel energy. We just think the price we pay is the full price. (A carbon tax is needed to fix that.)
PV1 said:
If someone buys a PHEV where an EV could easily work for them, I respect it as their decision, but they should know that a better solution is available should they change their mind.
I've had some white knuckle not fun range anxiety moments in my iMiev. I am an early adopter and I accept the low range as I've felt it could fit our lifestyle pretty well. But it's the exceptions, and lack of public level 2 charging, that makes even just an 80 mile round trip a challenge. The iMiev is on the edge of useful for most gas car owners and why it's not been more successful. The PHEV model will be good in two ways: it get's more people thinking about and using electric drive vehicles, and it increases the likelihood that level 2 (and 3) charging will be installed. That will make BEVs with limited range more useful and reduce range anxiety ... and ultimately lead to more BEVs.
PV1 said:
I'm personally still buying the i. I had a second thought about the new LEAF, but I'm still going with Mitsubishi for the public exposure to electric cars. The i will turn more heads than a LEAF will, especially since the i is virtually nonexistent in my area, and people have heard about the LEAF already.
I hadn't thought about the higher EV exposure that the i affords. It is definitely more unique.

By the way, I think you're in PA like I am. The $3,500 rebate from the state is available for only 56 more buyers (as of yesterday), so you'd have to get that in the next week or so (I guess) or risk it not being available.
 
Nissan wised up and added a "B" mode to their 2013 Leaf, but NOT to their bottom model. Unless someone needs 5 seats, I still think our iMiEV is a far better utilitarian urban vehicle - simply throwing a tight U-turn and zipping into a tight spot is sooo satisfying!
 
If someone buys a PHEV where an EV could easily work for them, I respect it as their decision, but they should know that a better solution is available should they change their mind.

What I meant by this is that a better solution means that trips made in the vehicle that are just beyond the electric range of a PHEV are within the range of an EV, so they don't have to use gas for the last 5 or 10 miles, and save all the maintenance of the gas engine. This situation is for a person who buys a second vehicle just for commuting, or does all of their driving within the range of the EV, the latter being my situation. Why have the extra maintenance and expense so the vehicle can make that once in a blue moon trip? For example, there has been one day where I know the i would have run out of charge on me, but what I could have done was either take another vehicle to begin with, or stop at home and switch on the way to my destination, both options would have worked easily. I'm sure many have a similar situation.


Yes, I am in PA. I thought about that rebate the other night after reading a website where it sounded like Mitsubishi dropped the i, but they dropped the Eclipse, Galant, and Endeavor instead. I missed a line saying "leaving five models to populate dealer showrooms, including the i-MiEV electric car." So I guess the car is safe for another year. I started searching and found the state's rebate page. Yep, 56 vehicle rebates left. I'm keeping a close eye on it, and depending on what the new number is when it's updated, I'll decide when to buy. It's not updated daily, however. I'm pretty much ready to buy it now, there is some stuff with the bank I have to do before I buy, and I want to see about an extended test drive. My commute right now can easily be accommodated with overnight level 1. Do you know how long it takes for the rebate to go through?

Glad to hear about the LEAF's B mode, although the regen in ECO before was pretty strong, but selection was either high or low, there was no in between except with brake pedal work.
 
I've had my i for seven months. I was spending $40.00 a week on gasoline in my 2008 Nissan Versa that could easilly get 43 mpg. No hybrid came close other than a prius but at only 7 more MPG which to me was just not worth the upgrade. Only until EVs came onto the marketplace was I willing to take on car payments again. At $40.00 a week and with 29 weeks since purchase, I have saved $1160.00 on gasoline alone. I probably would have had 3 maintenance checks by now costing another $1000.00. At $2000 in a six month period, I don't see how people can't see that the EV is much cheaper to own than an ICE.

If the motor companies won't aggresively advertise the benefits of the EV, then we need to get more involved in our local EVAs (Electic Vehicle Associations) and encourage these groups to promote the EV. At the national level, an EVA could pay for advertising. At the local level, an EVA could host an EV rally and other events to get more of the general public on board. It's going to take a grassroots effort to put the EV in the public spotlight and to change the hearts and minds of the public.
 
MLucas said:
I've had my i for seven months. I was spending $40.00 a week on gasoline in my 2008 Nissan Versa that could easilly get 43 mpg. No hybrid came close other than a prius but at only 7 more MPG which to me was just not worth the upgrade. Only until EVs came onto the marketplace was I willing to take on car payments again. At $40.00 a week and with 29 weeks since purchase, I have saved $1160.00 on gasoline alone. I probably would have had 3 maintenance checks by now costing another $1000.00. At $2000 in a six month period, I don't see how people can't see that the EV is much cheaper to own than an ICE.

If the motor companies won't aggresively advertise the benefits of the EV, then we need to get more involved in our local EVAs (Electic Vehicle Associations) and encourage these groups to promote the EV. At the national level, an EVA could pay for advertising. At the local level, an EVA could host an EV rally and other events to get more of the general public on board. It's going to take a grassroots effort to put the EV in the public spotlight and to change the hearts and minds of the public.
From what you said I assume that you driving about 400 -500 miles a week. Just wonder how many times a day you charging your i?
 
PV1 said:
If someone buys a PHEV where an EV could easily work for them, I respect it as their decision, but they should know that a better solution is available should they change their mind.
For example, there has been one day where I know the i would have run out of charge on me, but what I could have done was either take another vehicle to begin with, or stop at home and switch on the way to my destination, both options would have worked easily. .
I love the simplicity of the i, and BEVs in general. You'd think since I bought one I'd be falling over myself to tell everyone to buy an EV. But I believe the road to EV adoption is not to over-promise and underdeliver, but rather to set expectations realistically and overdeliver more often than not. So, I have to say that I've had range issues a couple times and I often drive a bit more "on edge" than I do in a gas car. Once because my wife had the other (gas) car and the other I simply had an extra errand I thought would be manageable. Level 2 charging would have given me the extra comfort to make it back home without turtling, but as it was I had to scrounge to find Level 1 and then a meeting ran late (so had to push the speed). I'm just expressing some real limitations to BEVs, that a PHEV, despite its complexity, avoids. I am encouraged to think that more PHEVs will actually make BEVs better and easier to own in the long run.

But - I should also note the positives: FUN and QUIET operation, LOW running costs, NO emissions, and peace of mind that I'm supporting and encouraging a more sustainable technology.
PV1 said:
Do you know how long it takes for the rebate to go through?
I think for us it only took 4-5 weeks, but they say allow 8-10.
 
mitsu5 said:
From what you said I assume that you driving about 400 -500 miles a week. Just wonder how many times a day you charging your i?

It's more like 300 miles / 450 kilometers just for my commute each week (60 mi / 90 km - per day). That's 3/4 a tank on a Nissan Versa with a 10 gallon tank. I was never comfortable with going below 1/4 tank without a fill up but somedays I couldn't help it. Weekend driving added more miles and more costs. I hope to never have to deal with that weekly fill up anymore.

60 mi/ 90 km is well within the range of the i MiEV, even in winter conditions. I charge up during the day in the winter because of the demands of cold weather on the car. I know I could make it home without charging but I'd be flat out. The mid-day recharge not only gives me more distance but also more peace of mind and lets me use more heat. The summer months, I can do the trip with four bars remaining. Yet, its nice to come home with a 1/2 charge left so if I want to take the car out again I can.
 
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