Aerowhatt
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Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:52 am

kiev wrote:During the course of dismantling jay's charger i discovered that the 'clear' plastic sleeving and black heat shrink tubing on the inductor and transformer wiring had somewhat melted and fused together. i don't know at what temperature that would occur, but it is likely greater than 360 F. i've never seen heat shrink melt while using a heat gun during application and it is rated at 360F max. i posted some pictures of the internal aluminum heat sink for the soldered board in the troubleshooting thread.

i connected to level 2 for charging this morning and measured some temperatures inside the box.

started at 8am, everything at ambient, 76F

checked at 9 am, ambient at 80F; 10am, amb at 83
water pipes
MCU 88; 94
OBC 89; 94
EMI filter top (joe's doghouse), 102; 114
side of obc case, 96; 98
large cap, 127; 144
large inductor rear, 208; 194
transformer rear, 195; 184
trans front, 165; 210
small inductor front, 174; 212
top board surge supp potting, 158; 165

So it's gettin all Hot in Herre


Wow thanks for taking the time to get these numbers Kiev :!: I was tempted . . . but thought better of opening mine up and risking warranty refusal, god forbid. The rub is that these components will run even hotter without the charger cases cover removed and they bathe all the components around them in the hot sauna that they are creating.

Aerowhatt
2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015 (42.7ah at ~26K miles)
2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016 (41.5ah at ~15k miles)

Aerowhatt
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Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:54 am

jray3 wrote:While driving, the waste heat loads should be higher, yes, but there is more than just the radiator fan at work. The turbulent air in our motor bay has to provide some cooling as well, compared to the hot stagnant air during a recharge. I'm just glad I never got around to making that rear belly pan for aerodynamic improvement!


Me too! it was on my list, happy to cross it off :)

Aerowhatt
2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015 (42.7ah at ~26K miles)
2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016 (41.5ah at ~15k miles)

Aerowhatt
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Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:22 am

OK . . . so does this make sense? Looking back at the numbers the lowest coolant temp and case temp numbers were both achieved with aggressive air cooling the charger case only. If the coolant temperature is lower then the components that Kiev has just pictured on the aluminum heatsink (troubleshooting thread) (which are in contact with the coolant loop) would also be running cooler right? Otherwise the coolant temp would stay higher right? I'm thinking perhaps the coolant cooling system was designed to cool only these components on the heat sink. It's the rest of the components on the other boards that are driving the temperature up. From the layout I'm surmising that the liquid cooling was never intended to cool the other components. The case was being relied upon to conduct it out. Which if mounted in a different environment would really do much better. But, Mitsu mounted it in a stagnant (when parked and charging) hot air trap making things much worse.

I'm fine tuning my ventilation strategy before finalizing the design. Once the bay hatch was all put back to the normal configuration I'm seeing a modest rise in the temperatures over the original (best) test numbers. I'm assuming that some hot air is getting recycled through the system once it is all closed up. So right now I'm testing different adjustments to mitigate that back to the best case numbers.

Aerowhatt
2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015 (42.7ah at ~26K miles)
2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016 (41.5ah at ~15k miles)

JoeS
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Location: Los Altos Hills, California

Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:50 pm

Aerowhatt wrote:
jray3 wrote:...I'm just glad I never got around to making that rear belly pan for aerodynamic improvement!

Me too! it was on my list, happy to cross it off :)
Same here, although I never could figure out how to cover the transaxle.

kiev, did you leave the cover in place and then remove it to make your measurements, or was the cover off the whole time?

What's troubling with kiev's measurements is the high temperatures achieved by the magnetics. Even if they used hi-temp insulation, the heat generated and dissipated within the confines of that closed case would be especially damaging to not only the semiconductors but the capacitors as well. Aerowhatt, I agree that it looks as though non-heatsinked components and charger location were probably not properly addressed. Pity that's such an environmentally-dirty/wet area which complicates/precludes adding holes and a fan directly onto the charger...

Beginning to look like bonding a finned heatsink to the case with the air blowing over it and perhaps some means of extracting that trapped hot air under the rear deck might be indicated ... jray3's initial list isn't looking that far-fetched. :geek:
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Don
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Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:09 pm

A question - What controls the pump cycling??

With 435 cfm going through the radiator, my pump kicks on for about 30 seconds and then is off for about a minute and then repeats when I'm charging L2 @ 12 amps. If it's a thermal switch cycling the pump, then it is carrying away an awful lot of heat generated somewhere. I noticed charging the other car this afternoon using L1 @ 12 amps with no air blowing in the radiator, the pump doesn't seem to be cycling at all

I just put that big 435 cfm blower under the back of the car, pointed up at the electronics, so I'll check later and see how hot things are getting with it running. It moves a LOT of air!

For the time being, since it gets so hot down here in the summer, I've got an original, unmodified 8 amp OE EVSE and I think I'll start using that from now on - We nearly always have 12 to 14 hours between the last time we use either car and the next time we need it the next day . . . . I really don't need to be charging faster than that 98% of the time and it's GOT to stay cooler using 960 watts than it does using 2,880

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
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DkubusEV
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Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:12 pm

Hi Guys ive been reading this thread with great interest and im thinking it might be well worth getting a bit extreme on this modification for what im building (ImiEv based lightweight race car)....

anyway I think im going to "port" the Charger case and then positively pump cooling airflow into and out of it via dual sealed "dust and moisture" proof pipe work from and into the cabin air space.

This should assist with those burning hot individual component temps?

cheers for the data guys.

Mike.

kiev
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Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:53 pm

JoeS wrote:...
kiev, did you leave the cover in place and then remove it to make your measurements, or was the cover off the whole time?

What's troubling with kiev's measurements is the high temperatures achieved by the magnetics. Even if they used hi-temp insulation, the heat generated and dissipated within the confines of that closed case would be especially damaging to not only the semiconductors but the capacitors as well.


Yes Joe that's exactly what i did--left the cover in place except to quickly open and get a reading.

i was trying to figure how to drill a couple of holes in the case to mount a fan--maybe a small squirrel cage blower with a dust filter on the inlet.

Those big caps are Nichicon GX(M) 680 uF, 420 VDC, rated at 105C
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

coulomb
Posts: 114
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:30 am

kiev wrote: Those big caps are Nichicon GX(M) 680 uF, 420 VDC, rated at 105C

420 V? The datasheets seem to say 400 V max for 680μF. The GX series are moderate ripple current, long life (5000 hr @ 105°C and rated ripple current). So: about as good as Nichicon make them*, and I've only seen one longer life model, 10,000 hr (one of the United Chemicon series, quite rare).

*Edit: Oops, I see that Nichicon do make some 10,000 hr models, e.g. the (L)GR series, but those GR series have lower ripple current ratings.

It's possible that they make special order capacitors for these chargers (with a non-standard 420 V rating).

Aerowhatt
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Re: Supplemental cooling for the charger.

Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:58 am

JoeS wrote:Beginning to look like bonding a finned heatsink to the case with the air blowing over it and perhaps some means of extracting that trapped hot air under the rear deck might be indicated ... jray3's initial list isn't looking that far-fetched. :geek:


Yeah, I don't think a heat sink is in order. It might even get in the way with the close quarters when the "hood" is down. The key is lots of fresh air. These blowers I am using are amazing. Thinking computer fan would be way off the mark. These things kick out high velocity, large quantities of air in a small package. The key is to blow so much air over the unit that the entire bay is turbulent and in motion. This allows rapid mixing of the normally stagnant hot air with ambient air being draw up from below by the turbulence. I use a "smoke" test to optimize the turbulence. Put a plexiglass lid on the compartment let the hot air collect, add smoke, Turn on blower and time the interval until the smoke clears. Adjust mounting, rinse and repeat until the results are optimal. There isn't a lot of room to work with, so the solution has to be simple, elegant and effective. No space (or need) for more complicated Rube Goldberg solutions. ;)

Aerowhatt
2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015 (42.7ah at ~26K miles)
2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016 (41.5ah at ~15k miles)

kiev
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Location: The Heart o' Dixie
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nichicon Charger and DC/DC Converter

Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:29 pm

The box has a nichicon part number, and looking thru their website i found they take credit for the miev OBC. In fact they claim that it worked so well for Mitsubishi that Nissan converted over to using their design in the Leaf.

Here is a page from a product brochure:

Image

So i would say that nichicon is to blame if there are any thermal issues. Wonder if we could buy them direct without getting middle-manned by Mits?
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

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