PV1
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Re: Range extender !

Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:55 pm

Llecentaur wrote:Then if Nowdays, I charge for an average of 8 hours (220V) for my daily driving needs, then why, as long as the average say weekly usage is within the same bracket, the user would not be able to use the same charger, he would just be charging during the night and drive off without a fully charged battery which would even partially charged have a higher range than our present batteries.


Under this scenario, you would actually have more range than a full charge now because the charger wouldn't ramp down and sit idle for an hour or so before being unplugged. It would keep charging at full speed until you unplug it (or precondition the car). And if you needed even more range, just keep the car plugged in longer and start charging up the other half of the battery. Every hour of charge time at the car's full level 2 would give you 10-13 miles of range. So, after 8 hours of charging, you could have 80-104 miles of range, 100-130 miles after 10 hours of charging (not accounting for charger timeouts and other real-world factors, based on continuous 3.3 kW, energy economy between 3 and 4 miles/kWh).

2X capacity batteries may not be that far off. Even 1.5X capacity batteries can be done in 2-4 years and maintain the same size. Look at NiMH progression over the last few years. Before, the largest AA only held ~1900 mAh, now hold 2,800 mAh. Even laptop batteries over the last 3 years have increased capacity by about 40%. My laptop has an 86 Wh battery in it, made 3 years ago. A week ago, I come across a battery in a similar laptop, smaller, but held 97 Wh.
:idea: :idea: :idea: :!: :!:

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alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Range extender !

Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:58 pm

Don wrote:You'd need to nearly completely redesign the car, I'm afraid. I doubt we'll ever see any conversion kits for it either . . . . they just didn't sell enough of these to justify the necessary engineering. They sold literally millions of 2CV's but maybe only a thousand or two iMiEV's

I think Don's analysis is a bit too pessimistic. For one thing, InsideEV's claimed about 6 months ago that 29,000 i-MiEV's and their Citroen and Peugeot cousins had been manufactured. That's almost twice as many i-MiEV's as original Honda Insights whose intermodule communications have been reverse-engineered sufficiently to allow a talented owner to replace the Insight's NiMH battery pack with a Li ion battery pack. He has designed a BMS that anyone with circuit board building skills could build. He has been running Li ion battery packs in a couple of Insights for 2 or 3 years with no drama. He has now replaced the NiMH battery pack in a Civic Hybrid with an Li ion battery pack along with his custom BMS.

Several talented i-MiEV owners are making progress decoding the i-MiEV's CAN bus protocols, so I would think that by the time a more advanced battery cells are available, i-MiEV owners should have the option of replacing their out-of-warranty OEM battery packs for a relatively reasonable price.
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

peterdambier
Posts: 284
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Location: Bergstrasse, Germany

Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:53 am

Don is a realist and we do need somebody around to keep our feet on the floor or we'll start to convert airplanes to electric drive.

My worst case scenario is, Mitsu will do nothing and we are on our own. We have got a car, a drivetrain with 3 phase engine and a vehicle control unit.

The vehicle control unit will take care of almost everything but we need to spoof the battery management unit. A machina or arduino with canbus will take care of that. all we have to do get the batteries installed take care of them and get a new charger.

Many conversions are done with most of them a few cars only. So our i-MiEV will be one of the easiest to do.

My preferred one is Mitsu will do all the work, reprogramme battery management unit and charger as they had already to do to build in smaller batteries of different chemistry.
Peter and Karin Dambier, DL2FBA, www.piraten-fraktion-bergstrasse.de

Llecentaur
Posts: 240
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Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:34 am

I also tend to think that Mitsu rather than Citroen or Peugeot will make that transition effort. At least that would make sense in the concept that the imiev was and shoukd remain a shiw case of Mitsu's know how.

Lets imagine how much money they have invested in this project versus hiw much is needed to make those updates to show the public that these 5-10 year old imievs where a good choice in 2011 and are still competitive in say 2017. That would then be the time when the iMiev coukd become the cult car we some of us are anticipating.

Regarding CANBus protocol and data collection, I am not qualified to help directly but do have two excellent IT employees whi could very effectively program iphone or android monitoring tools. My comoany is not in a position to ofer their work but I can make them availabke at cost if that is of any help and will participate in any setup. But we need an engineer to run the project, users to run tests, then those mobile APPs coukd be handy.

By the way I did buy a BT ODBII reader that I connect to my Galaxy note to read my Audi's engine data. I guess this is the same norm to connect to the iMiev ?

Don
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Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:27 am

I'm not at all pessimistic about new battery development - I think every year we'll be reading about new EV's with smaller, higher density, more efficient battery technology which will enable a small-ish EV to go farther and farther . . . . I certainly believe that's coming

What I am a bit pessimistic about is any of that new technology being reverse adaptable to older gen1 and gen 2 EV's like we're all driving. There would be even more EV's on the road now, but the battery technology is what's holding things up and when the new battery technology comes along, they'll be designing new EV's around it and building as many of those as the battery supply will allow . . . . few will be working on a way to adapt the newer technology to installation in older cars

Our battery pack is contained in a very odd shaped metal protective shell which bolts to the underside of the car - They fit the cells into an unusual shape to take advantage of the raised portion of the floor under the seats. I think it's not very likely that the new cells will be the exact same size and shape as the older cells, which means fitting the new ones in the already existing 'container' will be next to impossible - The newer, higher density cells may require different spacing for cooling purposes, etc. The odds that someone will be selling a bolt-in kit for an iMiEV even if it turns out they sell 500,000 of these cars just isn't very great, IMO

Hope I'm wrong and one day we'll have affordable alternatives which will turn our 75 mile cars into 150 mile cars at much less than the cost of buying a newer EV . . . . because I really like this car and would enjoy driving it forever - "What's that weird old car Grandpa is driving? Oh, it an old 2012 something or other!"

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

JoeS
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Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:54 am

Well, we have about five years to prepare for battery replacement/upgrade, and I also hope that Mitsubishi will provide a path.

In the meantime, a range-extending battery concept that Enginer (now defunct?) was implementing seemed quite simple: a 48v pack with a dc-dc converter, with the output of that converter being injected directly into the EV or Hybrid's battery pack. The add-on 48v pack could be any chemistry, with its own self-contained charger and BMS, the BMS also protecting that add-on pack from over-discharge.

Trick would be to ensure the dc-dc output voltage is very carefully regulated and well below the iMiEV's pack upper limit (to allow the existing iMiEV BMS to stay fully functional). As a first cut I'd be inclined to set that voltage somewhere around the iMiEV's 30%SOC voltage.

I was surprised that third-party add-on packs to conventional hybrids don't bother interacting with the existing vehicle BMS, but simply provide another current source, just as the output of a regenerating motor does - recognizing that the motor output is indeed managed to avoid overheating or overcharging an already charged battery.

Hmmm, since I already have a whole bunch of Headway 12AHr cells which I use for both my electric scooter (24v) and electric outboard (48v) with an excellent model-airplane LiFePO4 BMS managing each cell individually, I should get ambitious and prove this concept on one of my other EVs… anyone have any suggestions for a 48v-->330v(adjustable) dc-dc converter whose output stage must be protected to avoid the battery voltage from zapping it (simple diode isolation?)?
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

peterdambier
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Location: Bergstrasse, Germany

Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:35 pm

Feeding something parallel to the heater e.g. should be possible. That will turn our heater into a regenerative heater.

There is no voltage related to our state of charge. Start feeding at soc 50% on the gauge and keep looking at the gauge, stop when the gauge shows 75%. Feed some 340 volts but limit current to 10A or 20A. That will most likely turn our power meter towards blue. It will reduce power drawn from the batteries but feed little if any into the batteries.
Peter and Karin Dambier, DL2FBA, www.piraten-fraktion-bergstrasse.de

jray3
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Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:42 pm

JoeS wrote:In the meantime, a range-extending battery concept that Enginer (now defunct?) was implementing seemed quite simple: a 48v pack with a dc-dc converter, with the output of that converter being injected directly into the EV or Hybrid's battery pack. )?


You called it Joe- Enginer is out of business, though their website is still up. :twisted: I checked with a friend and now-former Enginer dealer. Here's a snippett that's civil...
"Oh, very dead. I wouldn't be surprised if he's still taking money."
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 105,400 miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

PV1
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Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:33 pm

I have touched on this subject somewhere else in the forum. I was thinking to tie into the HV feed of the car's DC-DC converter. Maybe also put some flexible solar on the roof of the car to feed the secondary battery pack if it would be worthwhile.
:idea: :idea: :idea: :!: :!:

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jray3
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Re: Range extender !

Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:07 pm

PV1 wrote: I was thinking to tie into the HV feed of the car's DC-DC converter. Maybe also put some flexible solar on the roof of the car to feed the secondary battery pack if it would be worthwhile.

The location that one ties into the car's HVDC bus (charger out, dc-dc input, main pack connector) shouldn't matter as long as the cable and fuse is matched for ampacity and the effect on any bypassed instrumentation is understood.
I'm a fan of solar, but view it as only a hood ornament on daily drivers. The yield compared to cost, along with the added weight and aero challenges make it difficult to justify for any reason other than "I Wanted It!".
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 105,400 miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

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