bennelson
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:23 pm

Hi everyone.
I've been following this thread with great interest.

I have decided that the Mitsubishi iMiEV heating system is either fine or TERRIBLE, depending on where you live and what your average winter temperatures are. A few days ago, it was -8 degrees F. in my part of the world (Wisconsin, United States.)

I would like to install the heater that Sandange and others have installed, only the gasoline version, so that I can burn straight ethanol. Ethanol burns clean. It's not smelly like diesel, and doesn't flash the way gasoline does. I'd like my car to run on RENEWABLE electricity, and the heater to run on renewable liquid fuel. I have a source for pure ethanol (E98) and if I run out of that, commercial E85 is available at my local gas station.

Any concerns about which hoses to use or materials for the fuel tank? Here's the heater I would be looking to get: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 02128.html

As has already been addressed in this thread, it appears to be the same as the diesel version - just slightly different software.

sandange
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Location: Quebec, Canada
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:02 am

Looks like the same kit as the one I installed.
Curious to hear how satisfied you are using ethanol. Someone here had tried several different types of fuel . Can't remember what their conclusion was.

No mater what fuel you use, you'll experience a significantly improved level of winter driving , comfort as well as extended driving range.
Tesla Model 3 SR+, 2019
Previous EVs
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
200,000 km , 124.000 miles.
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

bennelson
Posts: 134
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:22 am

The experiments with the different fuel types were done with one of the diesel heaters. I'll be ordering a gasoline one, so it should be fine. We all do know that there's just plain more energy in diesel than there is in gasoline than there is in ethanol. However, I will still prefer to be heating with something that I could practically drink.

Jarkko just made a post on his experiences with ethanol at his personal blog. http://kwsaki.blogspot.com/2016/01/heating-my-evs.html

I also spent some time on the phone with a friend yesterday, who is an expert in ethanol. He's made thousands of gallons himself from scratch. After speaking with him, I really don't have any concerns about it. He also said he would donate 5 gallons of pure ethanol for me to start with. (E98. It's 98% ethanol. It has 2% of other things in it, mostly to keep people from drinking it!)

As Sandange said, I expect that even if the ethanol has fewer BTUs, it still would be a huge jump up from the existing heating system. I also like redundant systems. Installing the fuel-burning heating in ADDITION to the original electric means that heat is still available if for whatever reason the fuel-burner isn't working. It still maintains the electric pre-heat feature. And a person can still use the electric only heat on short trips and/or not as cold weather to reduce fuel use.

Seems like a Hybrid Heater System has lots of advantages.

The downsides are
Cost: I have to buy the heater and install it.
Fuel Cost: I would have to buy fuel. But I shouldn't use much, so it's a very small cost, especially compared to gassing up an entire ICE vehicle.
Noise: The heater isn't as quiet as the electric, but with the radio on and the windows up, so what? Keeps us from running over all the blind pedestrians anyways.

Any other downsides? Takes a little time to fire up and there can be smell or exhaust issues, depending on the fuel. Again, ethanol should be the least offensive of any that way.

databeestje
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:47 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:15 pm

I just found this video online, I can't make out much of the speech as it's quite different from english, german or dutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4a8TEGyb7g

It looks like he has built the fuel tank next to the heater fluid tank and it actually has a filler cap, which is nice. I'm still wondering where the actual diesel heater is, could be in front of the radiator (from the sound of it) like you want to install it too. You'd only hear that in the winter though, so it isn't too bad.

Hanging your heater in the cold driving wind seems ... weird. But i guess it works

Carsten
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Location: USA, Vermont
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:47 pm

The Webasto Youtube video is in Russian. I didn't know, that Webasto has a unit, that would fit with a tank into the iMiev. I have yo look at it.

bennelson
Posts: 134
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:13 am

Returning to an earlier idea in this thread...

How about adding more heater fluid (coolant) to the system?

This should make the diesel heater cycle on and off less frequently, which should add to longevity and efficiency.

If adding extra coolant, how much would be appropriate, and where would be the best location to mount that size of an insulated coolant tank? I would think that because there is so little coolant in the car's heating system, that even something like a one liter thermos of extra coolant might help.

Your thoughts?

jsantala
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Location: Finland
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:19 am

Then again more coolant means more energy needed to heat it up initially (especially bad if the burner goes out) and it will also take longer to get it up to temperature. More piping and tanks will probably always mean more surface to radiate heat out. In my DIY I'm happy that the tank is not in the loop which the heated liquid travels, so it probably doesn't give much heat out. Should take some measurements though.

On the i-MiEV and friends, the waterfall tank setup probably maximizes heat loss as much as possible. I've though about re-arranging the water flow so that the tank wouldn't be directly in the loop in my C-Zero either. Seems like wasted energy to me. Yet another thing to do next summer, when it's actually possible to work on the things you need for winter...
kWsaki.com / EVs: Nissan Leaf 2012, Citroën Xsara 1997 (conv. 81V & 8" Series DC) and Kawasaki GPX750R 1987 (conv. 87V & ME1003 PMDC) / Used to have a Citroën C-Zero 2011

Aerowhatt
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:59 pm

jsantala wrote:On the i-MiEV and friends, the waterfall tank setup probably maximizes heat loss as much as possible. I've though about re-arranging the water flow so that the tank wouldn't be directly in the loop in my C-Zero either. Seems like wasted energy to me. Yet another thing to do next summer, when it's actually possible to work on the things you need for winter...


This is a good idea I think. One could shorten the heating loop considerably by using a tee to connect the shortened inlet hose to the shortened outlet hose of the reservoir tank then run the tee to the bottom opening of the tank. The tank would act like an expansion/replenishment tank instead of having constant flow through it. One would need to make sure that the connection of the hose up to the tank originated in the top side of the heater loop to facilitate the rise of any gasses or vapors back to the reservoir tank. This combined with insulating the loop would cut losses in the loop considerably!

Aerowhatt
(July) 2014 cool silver ES, acquired new 4/2015 (40.9ah at ~34K miles)
(Aug) 2014 Labrador Black Pearl ES, acquired new 3/2016 (39.7ah at ~20k miles)

databeestje
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:47 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:43 am

It's a shame there isn't any room in the dash to mount the heater and the tank, then some of the heat would leak into the cabin instead.

jray3
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:08 pm

I like having more 'coolant' (heat transfer fluid) in the heater loop, esp. for a car without the fuel-fired heater, as it will hold the electric preheat longer. My experiment with 5 gallons of hot water in the cargo hold worked very well on New Years Eve, when the car sat for hours in freezing weather, yet the cabin was warm when we returned.

Since I'm using an old 5 gallon outboard engine fuel tank, it was stable and quiet in the cargo hold and radiated heat effectively. If it were plumbed into the heating loop, there 'could' be no additional battery load while driving IF actively managed. Otherwise, you might get more heater use than wanted simply from the loop circulating through the tank while the blower is turned down. At a specific heat 1 BTU/LB of water (8.33 lb/gallon) per degree change in F, a 5 gallon tank of hot water will deliver 41.65 BTU per degree of change. That's 2916 BTU when falling from 120 to 50 degrees, or 5415 BTU if you heat it all the way to 180. That's 855 Watt-hrs from the 120 degree water or 1587 Wh from the 180 degree water. That's far better than a hunk of hot lead (0.03 btu/lb), iron (0.12 btu/lb), or even the best metal on the table, our cherished Lithium, at 0.85 btu/lb! reference: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-metals-d_152.html

Assuming 900 Wh per bar (since the turtle comes on at 10% SOC), that's 0.95 to 1.76 bars worth of heating, or 4 to 7 miles of range. (In return for carrying about 45 extra pounds of cargo)

Interestingly, the Valence U-Charge U27-12XP batteries I'm playing with on my Grumman Kurbwatt project weigh 44 lbs and hold up to 1766 Wh, making hot water just as valuable as cutting-edge Lithium batteries on a pound-for-pound basis. (And more valuable than any hunk of metal, be it Aluminum or Lead.
EVen if our lithium does prove good for a few thousand discharge cycles, that's nowhere near the infinite number of heating cycles that water is good for!
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 110,300 miles
2016 KIA SOUL EV, 90 kW, 27 kWh, 34k miles
2000 Mazda Miata EV, 78 kW, 17 kWh
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt EV,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh

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