sandange
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 am
Location: Quebec, Canada
Contact: Website

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:05 am

Yes that would be the average but it did include 8km at 85 kmph (5 miles at 53 mph ) & city stop and starting.
I estimate there is approximately a 30-35% advantage over the OE Heater
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
103.768 miles, 167,000 km
Previous EVs
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
Total Electric miles driven 145,400 miles (234,000 km)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

jsantala
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Finland
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:22 am

My Russian ethanol heater had blown it's glow plug, but I just replaced it and it's just so nice to have actual heat again. The ethanol heater heats the liquid around 75˚C while the electric heater only gets to about 55˚C. That's a 20˚C difference, which makes a huge impact on winter driving. Not to mention that the electric heater easily consumes a third of the usable pack capacity, whereas the ethanol heater just burns less a than a liter per hour using minimal amount of electricity. My tiny 20 Ah LiFePO4 battery has also been more than sufficient and I haven't had any problems with it. It's still located in the trunk.
kWsaki.com / EVs: Nissan Leaf 2012, Citroën Xsara 1997 (conv. 81V & 8" Series DC) and Kawasaki GPX750R 1987 (conv. 87V & ME1003 PMDC) / Used to have a Citroën C-Zero 2011

JKO
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:07 pm
Location: Falsled Denmark

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:35 pm

Is the 12V power strong enough for this:
http://www.biltema.dk/da/Bil---MC/Bil-t ... 2-V-40420/

PV1
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:08 pm

The car's 12 volt system could easily power that, but not through the power port in the dash. That's limited to 8 amps, or 96 watts. This heater uses 200 watts, or more than 16 amps. If it doesn't blow the fuse, you'll melt something for sure.

Even still, 200 watts of heat isn't much.
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Don
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Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:20 pm

PV1 wrote:Even still, 200 watts of heat isn't much.
Especially when compared to the little 120 volt utility heaters which are typically 1500 watts . . . . and even 1500 watts isn't much trying to heat something as poorly insulated as a car on a 20 degree day

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

DonDakin
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:44 am

Well here is a little update on my experience with the diesel heater (dh) in the imiev. I'll give more of a qualitative evaluation rather then look at the numbers. Maybe I will post some canion numbers a little later on.

By the way, Anyone with canion can see how much they are spending on heat. Its pretty easy to convert those heat WH into miles or kms. You could decide if a fuel heater is worth it for you.

First of all the heater is either a fantastic range extender or a useless 4 kg weight in the car it depends on your use of heat in an ev.

If your one of those people who can drive with no heat and it doesn't really bother you then the heater is useless and does not extend range. This may be obvious but its worth mentioning because there are people who are content to drive with no heat in the ev for whatever reasons.

If you drive your ev with "survival" amounts of heat only to defrost windows for example then the dh starts to make a little sense.

If you drive using as much heat as you can for comfort but still making it to you destination then the heater becomes a good range extender.

If you like your car warm and you need or want as much range as possible for peace of mind or you just need it to make you destination then the heater is indispensable.

Basically the desire for comfort in the car for the driver and passengers is the real driver for this kind of extra heater.

Once you have it You definitely get used to having the heat and soon become dependant on it and then you wonder how you ever did without it.....

In very cold temps of < -20 deg c the heater really pulls its weight and you see the greatest range increase and greatest comfort increase.

The dh also give you have a lot more confidence that you can make your destination. You can basically do more with the car in these bitter temps Without getting frostbite....:)

It is pretty much a linear relationship of temp vs range extension up to about say + 5 deg c where you don't really need the dh the electric heat is fine unless you are really pushing the limits of the car's range. At + 5 deg C its much easier to run the car with no heat and have the same result dh installed or not. Actually when the temps are up i just use the stock heater most of the time. I also use the stock electric heater in very cold temps when I am just doing a very short drive.

I don't have any numbers but the fuel heater is hotter then the electric one. Its kind of like the turbo button on the old pc's. But it is slower to get going. It takes 4-5 minutes to get heat when its really cold. The stock heat is more like 1 minute to warm up.

So overall for my neck of the woods it's a great idea.

Two things are problematic in my implementation:

My 1.8 liter fuel tank needs to be filled a lot when it gets really cold. More then I thought I would need to fill it. Like i said you get used to the heat. I should figure out a larger tank, 10 liters with a gauge would be nice.

Second with the heater in the front of the car in stop and go traffic and with the fan on max some of the exhaust seems to get sucked into the car not much but you can detect it. Its fine as long as the car is rolling but at a stop light I have to lower the fan to half or less. I need to run the exhaust more to the side and away from the car. That will be my next project when it gets a little warmer.

Also on the down side you do need to fiddle with starting the heater and setting a runtime and then setting the normal heat controls to heat for a second to direct air thru the heating core and then back to the green dot to stop using electric heat. Not really a problem for me but still a few manual things to keep track of. The whole system is not very automatic at all. Not aproblem for me but for some a completely automatic system with the dh kicking in when it gets really cold or the battery is at 50 %would probably be nice for some people.

Another thing, The heater does make noise. In the cabin when your rolling with music on low you can hear the fuel pump and the exhaust blower but its not loud enough to bother you.
Outside of the car you hear it much more its like and enhanced AVAS (did i get that right ) maybe a great safety feature in the winter. Some people may not like the extra noise but to tell the truth at -20 deg c all the windows are closed and you could care less about sound. Your completely isolated from the outside when your in the car.

For me its been a progression of one winter with only L1 charging to a second winter with L2 to a third with a diesel heater. Each winter so much easier then the previous one in terms of heat and comfort in the car.

Of course my wife and kids are much happier in the car in the winter with the heater. The imiev is no longer known as the car you freeze in.

So of course its no surprise that I would recommend this mod to anyone who experiences these really low temps and would prefer to be in a warm ev rather then a freezing one. I guess if it was a factory option then everyone in the north would take it. I think the first winter is a little bit of a rude awakening for new ev buyers. A dh option on the car could eliminate that.

Now that being said if you have no need to ever do more then 50 km in the winter then the stock heater is fine. Its clean, easy to use and never needs to be filled up.

Don.....

jaraczs
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:03 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:23 am

Don,
Thank you for very nice write up. I am endorsing it 100%.

For in-factory implementation, I would recommend Mitsubishi to adjust the dh software to provide:
1) driver controlled temperature
2) implement (auto) adjustable power with much lower minimum, somewhere around 500W,
3) eliminate the lengthy system check at the beginning to provide faster heat onset,
4) use the heat for (automatic) battery heating
5) work hard to decrease the noise and
6) eliminate/decrease the smelly fumes during start and stop sequence.

I thing one of the hurdles is the regulatory. There is an obvious need to re-implement a fuel tank in EV, which brings a safety controls with it.

Mitsubishi must also improve roof and foot well insulation (just like Nissan did with Leaf).

Stan

sandange
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 am
Location: Quebec, Canada
Contact: Website

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:20 pm

Great write up Don
&
Recommendations jaraczs

Most Important for me are
Winter Range extending.
Fully defrosted windshield and windows for saftey,
Warm feet
Full passenger cabin comfort not just the front 2 seats.

How did I do 2 winters with out it?
Puey Bluey 2014 Miev
103.768 miles, 167,000 km
Previous EVs
Blackie - 2012 ES Miev 2 years - 67,000 km / (41,630 miles)
Total Electric miles driven 145,400 miles (234,000 km)
http://thecordstead.blogspot.ca/

DonDakin
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:56 am

A short update on some cold weather driving done recently.

last weekend was very cold in the Montreal area. In fact we have been in a cold snap with lows of -24 deg c at night and highs of -10 to -15 during the day.

Last weekend I did 240 km (150 miles) in these temps. About half of the was done in the evening. I did do 4 hours of L1 8 amp and 3 hours of L2 opportunity charging away from home. It was the highest amount of mileage I have done in such cold weather. This was all running around in the area and spread out over the 2 days. I managed to turtle the car on sat and sunday. Very uncomfortable to see the turtle but i was glad to have canion so i could look at the percent left as we dug into the turtle. I brought the car down to 5 % on saturday and 6 % on sunday in order to get home.

This was all done with the diesel heater and no electric heat. I was pretty impressed with the distance that can be accomplished considering the road conditions and the extreme cold. Although I didn't like bringing the car down to the turtle, It was not part of the plan but I'm glad I had that extra 10 % to make it back. Of course this was with no sacrifice of comfort in the cabin.

I could not have done these type of distances without the diesel heater in these temps.

Don.....

RobertC
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 am
Location: Winter Garden, FL

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:45 am

DonDakin wrote:I managed to turtle the car on sat and sunday. Very uncomfortable to see the turtle but i was glad to have canion so i could look at the percent left as we dug into the turtle. I brought the car down to 5 % on saturday and 6 % on sunday in order to get home.
Did you look at the voltage on your battery cells on Canion at 5% and 6%? I have been meaning to look at the cell voltages on my MiEV with 40,000 miles the next time my charge was low to see how close they were, and if any cells were lower than the rest.

DonDakin wrote:In fact we have been in a cold snap with lows of -24 deg c at night and highs of -10 to -15 during the day.
What were the battery cell temperatures during your trip? Did you try to keep your battery warmer to increase your range?
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