Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fuel

A french forumer was successful at installing a Webasto heater placing it at the place of the 12V battery. But I think he had to move the Battery somewhere to the back of the car.

I was wondering of two other ways:

1) would it make sense to replace the original heater with a Webasto (or other like the one in a Volvo c30 that can run on ethanol) or if there is enough space to have both in series (first electric, then Webasto?)

2) or install the new heater at pkace of the battery but replace the lead battery by a LiFePo4 of equivalent or higher capacity which should be smaller and of adequate form facto ?

Alternatively what about a heat pumplike the ones in renault or Nissans?

Here is a link to mounting instructions for Eberspacher diesel burner in the i-Miev.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/10X3YJPaGzybNg28PBl2svWbb39O3K6dod2n3R93-_PiGT6sRLtBNGcQPPv3m/edit?hl=en_US

The manual is in Norwegian, but if you use google translate i suppose you will figure it out.

Personally i have put in an Webasto in my i-Miev following this instructions.

Thank you for the information.

Seems like a major work, i was hoping for a little less intervention, specially in the dash. Petty mitsibishi does not offer this as an option.

Do i understand correctly that the heater will coexiste with the original one, meaning that for a small trip, one could stay with the electric one ?

If you have the electric heater on, then turn the temperature knob to the neutral (green) position, does the air keep blowing through the heater core and use the remnant heat in the coolant loop, or does the air get diverted away and immediately blow cold air? I understand this turns off the electric heater.

The heater will coexist with the original electrical heater, so you can use either the fuel heater or the electrical heater.

If you will get hot air when tho temperature knob is in natural position depends.
-If you turn the knob to natural from heat, you got hot air when in natural.
-If you turn the knob to natural form cold, you got cold air when in natural.

The problem is that when you turn the knob to neutral, the coolant circulation pump stops. So you will only get the heat that is in the heater core. You can set the heat knob on the first step, then the circulation pump will starts, and since the water is hot the electrical heater will not turn on. At least until the coolant get cold.

The fuel heater have it's own coolant pump to circulate the coolant, so as long the fuel heater is on this is no problem.

Test0,

Could you please share the Webasto model you ordered ? Did you also install a reservoir at the back like in the manual ?

Also wondering if the iPhone remote function is worth it. That would really make the installation interesting but probably an overkill as anyway majority of iMieV owners according to my assumption do not charge it outside.

I use a Webasto Thermo Top 5 from an Peugeot 406 HDI. You could also use the newer Thermo Top Evo 5 as I believe the size of those will be the same.

I don't think TT Evo can be turned on/off with a simple switch. But you can use this interface to control the heater with a simple switch: http://www.danhag.de/index.php?z0=5&z1=1&sprache=en

The unit I'm using has a special FW for Peugeot and can be controlled by a simple switch.

Yes, I installed the reservoir like in the manual.

Thank you Test0,

I have asked my mechanic to take a look in junkyards for the Webasto Thermo Top 5.

The Norvegian supplier mentione that they no longer provide the kit on the user manual not did they have an english translation

How where you abke to purchase the reservoir and bumper diesel plug ! I would imagine we have to be careful with where one stores that diesel even if it is only two or three liters ?

I am really interested to make the conversion and attempt to document it in english for everyone, hope you do not mind couple of questions and it would be a great help if we coukd have some pictures of your specific mod?

Many thanks

Does anyone know anything about relocating the 12 volt battery up front. I am considering adding a combustion heater and that spot would make for an easy installation with all the plumbing just beside. I would have to relocate the 12 v battery or perhaps replace it with a smaller AGM or Lion one. Has anyone done this or read anything about it being done. I remember low racer changing the battery to headway cells but in the same position.

Any comments would be appreciated. Also if this can be made it's own topic that would be good also.


Tnx

Don.....

Glad to see this thread resurrected

I've wanted to add a fuel burning heater for sometime - Unfortunately, our climate down here just doesn't justify the project

I would definitely want to keep the existing heater, so you can preheat in the garage . . . . and still have heat if your fuel burning heater runs dry. Putting the heaters in parallel by using two Tee fittings in the existing hoses will allow either one to run using it's own coolant pump.

I agree that relocating the big accessory battery would be the logical way to go - All of the plumbing you need to access is right there

I would go with a smaller, motorcycle AGM battery. The OEM accessory battery is 31 AH I think, but it doesn't 'start' anything . . . . other than the car's computer. I think you could replace it with something much smaller and still have it do everything needed

Several six cylinder motorcycles use the UTX24HL AGM battery which is only about 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 by 8 inches and it has 21 AH. I have a couple of these in motorcycles, but I haven't tried physically fitting one into the existing space in the rear, under the motor/inverter cover, which is where I think it would need to go. Possibly by relocating the brake vacuum pump or the coolant tank, the battery could be squeezed in there? There is definitely plenty of room for it behind the drive motor, in front of the rear axle, though putting it there would require welding up a mount and a couple of brackets for it. If the modification became popular enough, someone could make a dozen of the mounts and sell them for $75 or so and make a few bucks

If you decide where you'd like the battery to go, there are literally hundreds of motorcycle AGM's to choose from and it shouldn't be hard to find one to fit the constraints of where you'd like to put it. I would think anything with 15 AH or so should be more than adequate

I'll follow this thread closely - Just wish I could be the one doing the first one!

Don

From some reason, I have missed this thread, which is a perfect place to add my story. I have contributed on the topic of combustion heater in the "Preparation for cold seasons" in the General Forum.

Information on sourcing of parking heaters from Webasto and Espar in North America:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13257#p13257

Pictures of completed project of replacement of PTC electric heater with JP Parking diesel heater:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14005#p14005

Summary of advantages and disadvantages:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14135#p14135
An update for those who are awaiting more information on installation of combustion heater (parking heater):
Due to repeated problems with interconnection of the heater with the iMiEV system, I have re-wired the system so that it is operated independently of vehicle's climate controls. The added benefit is that my RR readings are more reliable, the heater can be operated without fan (preheating the heater itself) and it can be programmed to do so automatically. Also, I can utilize the residual heat after the heater had been turned off by operating the vehicle's water pump to circulate the warm fluid.
Since I want to capture everything in my report, this re-wiring has delayed completion of it.
To give you a feel of my experince with it, here is a list of pros and cons:

PROS:
1) Extended range due to not using energy for heating (more consistent range across the seasons).
2) Extended range due to battery pack warming although it is not as effective as it could be (optional - available only in vehicles with QC port and/or Winter package and requires additional modification, OBD-BlueTooth transponder, Android device, Canion).
3) Improved cabin comfort & percieved more Btu.
4) Less driver's distraction (no more juggling with climate controls to minimize power use while keeping windows defogged).
5) Energy saving ($).
6) Ability to setup preheating with mini-timer.
7) Fuel flexibility - ethanol for exhaust odor control.
8) No vehicle body drilling required and if you decide to go back, the modification is 99% reversible.
9) Utilization of residual heat.

CONS:
1) Offensive exhaust odor when using diesel fuel (only at the beginning and end, edited 1/4/2013) - no preheat in the garage.
2) Noise - always at the beginning, later depending on heating needs (lower heating stage is much quieter). You can fool people by saying you have genset turbine. At speeds above ~40 MPH, it does not really matter, though.
3) Light vibrations at full power.
4) High cost of ethanol ($22.5 per Gal from Woodland Direct).
5) Fire hazard from having flammable/combustible liquid in the front trunk.
6) 2-3 minute delay in heating onset vs. PTC heater. Yet, it is comparable to ICE cars.
7) Non-trivial installation procedure, some skills are required. Installation in series with PTC heater would be maybe more complicated, though.

I found that when I use diesel in it, it is so powerfull that it runs in low power mode most of the time and yet it keeps everyone in the car toasty if not roasty. Forget about fogging. And it does not smoke as much as I was initially concerned. Occassionally, I warm up the battery as well so, the range does not suffer as much. I can turn off the heating 5-10 minutes before reaching my destination and keep circulating the hot liquid to get the last bit of the heat into my cabin. This all with just 24 oz (0.71L) bottle of diesel that provides heat for 2 hours. The heater replacement was my best modification, yet.

Release of installation instructions:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14761#p14761
The procedure for installation of diesel heater into iMiEV is available for public here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DuLIV4KPKrTk9SSjFjVDJfWms/edit?usp=sharing

Comments are welcome. All the "cons" I have listed in this thread before are well worth it. The heater smokes a little at the beginning but it is essentially odorless during normal operation. The subtle vibrations and noise are something I have noticed as "new" shortly after installing but I have quickly used to it.

If you are seriously interested to get the diesel heater, please send me PM and if there is enough interest we can consider placing a bulk order to save some money. It may be as low as $550 including shipping.

Thanks, Stan

If your Chinese Webasto clone is safe and durable, this is the way to go for EV's. Having to drive around cold with fogging windows in the winter is no way to impress potential EV buyers. I don't understand why EV manufacturers don't offer a similar heater as an option.

Fortunately, I don't need to worry about such problems

Hi Don,

Replacing the battery is an interesting idea. My motivation would be to free up the space for a additional heater.

I think I will look at moving the battery first.

First I would like to measure the current that the battery has to supply. I imaging that if you just turn the ignition to the on position but not the start position the car draws about 200-300 watts which is about 20 amps. It would like to check that on the car first when I get a chance. Then I'd like to see the current draw on the battery when the car is is the ready position. I guess it's zero and the battery is actually charging. So I would think that all you really need is a battery that could supply the computers long enough to get to the ready state. Of course if the battery is too small and you run the lights and other loads too long before going to the ready state you will be in bad shape unable to start the car. I think I will experiment with this first to see how small a battery I could get away with. I have some small ups batteries I can experiment with.

It would be great to find out that you could replace the battery with a small ups brick.

In case anyone else want to do this please feel free. I would love to hear what you find out.


Don.......

Also, don't forget that the battery is charging while the car is charging.

There are LiFePO4 batteries available that are drop-in replacements for those small UPS batteries. These will allow use of nearly all 9.6 Ah before the voltage gets too low, whereas the AGM battery may only get about half before dropping too low.

Here's a LiFePo4 battery which should fill the bill nicely

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APP18L1-BS12-18Ah-270CCA-Bombardier-DS650-Outlander-ATV-Lithium-LiFePO4-Battery-/121155068226?pt=Automotive_Services&hash=item1c3567a142&vxp=mtr

18 AH, Very Small, Very Light, only $185

Specification

Nominal Voltage: 12V

Nominal Capacity: Equivalent to a 18Ah SLA

Approximate Weight: 2.19 lbs (.997 kg)

L = 5.83, W = 2.28, H = 3.50

Cold Cranking Amps: 270 (The OEM battery is only 272 CCA's)

Self Discharge: Less than 3% per month

Charge Method (Constant Voltage)

Cycle Use (Repeating Use)

Initial Current: 18 A Max.Control Voltage: 14.4 VFloat Use

Control Voltage: 13.4 – 13.5 V

I think this battery could easily be fit sitting on the frame rail where the windshield washer fluid reservoir currently is - Shouldn't be too hard to relocate the washer reservoir

First things first though - We need to make sure the fuel heater will fit where the battery currently resides once it's removed/relocated


Don

Don said:

Here's a LiFePo4 battery which should fill the bill nicely
http://www.ebay.com/itm/APP18L1-BS12-18Ah-270CCA-Bombardier-DS650-Outlander-ATV-Lithium-LiFePO4-Battery-/121155068226?pt=Automotive_Services&hash=item1c3567a142&vxp=mtr

Click to expand...

The specification for this battery is fairly minimal, but it should certainly do the job as just about anything should work in what I consider a pretty benign environment. No warranty past the 30-day return that I could tell.

They don't mention having any active BMS, so there's a reliance (gamble?) on all four cells staying in balance. They recommend a float voltage of 13.4 – 13.5 V, but do allow a maximum of 14.4v. The last time I measured our iMiEV "12v" dc-dc output it was sitting at 14.33v at around 60degF. This would yield 3.583v/cell which, although a bit high, is within the 3.650 maximum for the typical LiFePO4. Incidentally, for my "48v" Headway pack I limit my maximum to 3.455v/cell to stay away from the upper 'knee'.

So far, my only experience with LiFePO4 has been with Headways (I have about 70 of these 12Ah cells http://headway-headquarters.com/headway-lithium-lifepo4-38140s-cell/). Although I have put together a "12v" pack, I've never installed it into any vehicle. Making up a "12v" pack consisting of four cells for our i-MiEV application would be less expensive (but with less capacity) than this eBay item. If you're not going with a BMS, I would top-balance the cells as that's where the i-MiEV's dc-dc will keep it.

To repeat a previous post, here are some photos of LOWRACER's installation using Headways in a 4S3P configuration: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4035#p4035. Haven't heard from him in ages to find out how the Headways have worked out in the long-term.

For myself, I plan on replacing my i-MiEV's battery with a small AGM if it ever shows any sign of leakage or inordinate voltage sag.

To answer DonDakin's original question as to where to relocate the battery to make some room, I have no idea...

BTW, would y'all mind if I moved these 12v discussions over to a 12v battery thread so we can find them easier?

Hey joe, don

I have read on the evdl about problems charging lifepbo4 at low temps. Below zero there is talk of lithium plating in the battery which for my climate is a concern. I think the AGM solution is good enough the question is how small a battery is practical. I am thinking that even a very small 7.5 ah AGM would supply the transient current neede to get to the ready mode. It would probably not do too well if you pulled the high beam lever while the key is in your hand or ran the fan and lights while you put the key in and turned to clicks but did not goto ready mode.

Something to think about. It may wind up being a compromise with a smaller battery.

As for heater placement and size I'm looking into that.


Joes you can relocate these posts but perhaps keep a link to this thread. The fundamental reason to change the 12v battery is to make space for the fuel heater. So it would be nice to have those 2 ideas linked. There maybe those who believe replacing the 12 v battery with a larger capacity one will get more range but I can't see this happening. As soon as the dc to dc kicks in then all the 12 v loads are passed along to the main pack the 12 v battery just charges and then floats.

Don......

DonDakin said:

Joes you can relocate these posts but perhaps keep a link to this thread. The fundamental reason to change the 12v battery is to make space for the fuel heater. So it would be nice to have those 2 ideas linked.

Click to expand...

I agree - If you move this battery discussion there, then a copy of it needs to stay here. The only reason to switch to a smaller battery is to gain space to install the fuel burning heater . . . . I can't imagine why anyone would want to do it otherwise

Don

Don said:

The only reason to switch to a smaller battery is to gain space to install the fuel burning heater . . . . I can't imagine why anyone would want to do it otherwise

Click to expand...

Less weight would one reason, especially had Mitsubishi tried hard to make the i-MiEV a light-weight car. Replacing the really old-style unsealed flooded cell OEM battery with an AGM battery would be another reason. Most AGM batteries seem to be of lower capacity than the OEM battery, so why pay more for a higher capacity AGM battery that most owners wouldn't need?

On my light-weight aluminum Honda Insight, I have replaced the 27 amp-hour flooded cell OEM battery with a much lighter AGM battery with half the capacity. After more than 10 years, this has caused no problem whatsoever, but then my Insight never has to use its 12 v. starter motor because I've never driven it in cold weather. With the i-MiEV having no starter motor or any other high wattage 12 v. accessory that would normally be operated for long periods without the DC-DC converter being on, I see no disadvantage replacing the OEM battery with a smaller one. Am I missing something?

alohart said:

. . . . I see no disadvantage replacing the OEM battery with a smaller one. Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

No, other than the cost

My point was that moving this particular battery discussion away from this thread would sort of gut this thread, since getting rid of the OEM accessory battery is step one to installing the fuel burning heater, so if someone is reading this with the desire to install the heater, why would we want the battery discussion elsewhere?

Don