Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Emission control sticker

Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:56 pm

Electric cars are not zero emission vehicles. According to Damien Linhart, they are usually more polluting, than the regular cars. Especially here, in Estonia.
https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uplo ... c-cars.jpg

kiev
Posts: 451
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Location: The Heart o' Dixie
Contact: Website

Re: Emission control sticker

Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:43 pm

Well i think most people would consider an electric car as not creating emissions which cause pollution, which is the definition of a zero emission vehicle.

The graphic in the referenced link is calculating pollution in terms of CO2 created and emitted by the POWER PLANT as it generates electricity, and allocating that pollution down to the electric car (or any electricity consumer, for that matter).

So by definition they are zero emission and don't pollute, whereas by someone's creative bookkeeping methods he has invented a new definition.

The only problem is that the POWER PLANTS are on all the time, 24/7/365, in order to maintain the electrical grid in an instantly-available state for all consumers. That is the way the world wants it--everybody wants, needs and uses electricity, and the grid is kept up all the time even if nobody is using any, or much, i.e. at night.

But seriously electric cars don't generate emissions or pollute to any extent compared to gasoline or diesel engine vehicles, you do understand that, right?
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

siai47
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:54 pm

Re: Emission control sticker

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:04 pm

I can't remember where I saw it but I believe there is an emissions sticker in the rear motor compartment on the right rear frame area around the vacuum pump. I would look except I no longer have an I-MiEV. As far as the gas car vs. electric car we have been all down that road before and there is no use arguing it. Points can be made either way but it is a no brainer when you start with the raw fuel for whatever powers you vehicle, be it crude oil, natural gas, coal, solar, hydro, etc. and then refine/convert it and deliver it to the vehicle and then consume it, the EV can usually win the argument. When you talk about power plants for EV's you need to talk about refineries for gasoline cars or you're not comparing apples to apples. There's were the problem comes in. I don't really care. I like the way an electric car drives. I like it's "fuel" economy compared to a gasoline vehicle. I like the fact that there are no point source emissions from the vehicle. I like the fact that it doesn't heat soak my garage in the summer when I park it inside. At least in the US, power plants are becoming cleaner as more are being fueled with natural gas and older coal plants are retired. It is much easier to monitor the emissions of a large power plant than thousands of poorly maintained aging gasoline cars. Recharging electric cars at night helps stabilize the load on the grid and increases the economy of the power plant by running it at a higher load. As range increases and more people come face to face with EV's, they will become more mainstream. As long as I have I choice, I'll buy what I want--for me, an EV or PHEV. If someone wants a one ton extended cab diesel truck to impress his buddies---hey fine with me, it's a free country but don't try to justify what you drive because some friend knew a guy that read on the internet that my car pollutes more then his "coal rolling" pickup :D Rant over.

BTW--the only way the I-MiEV it's self produces emissions is when you built it and when you scrap it. All that needs to be also figured in to the gas vehicle.

JoeS
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Re: Emission control sticker

Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:30 am

Kuuuurija wrote:Electric cars are not zero emission vehicles. According to Damien Linhart, they are usually more polluting, than the regular cars. Especially here, in Estonia...
This was totally an off-topic post.

Sorry to see two people fell into troll Kuuuurija's trap. If you go back into history this individual has caused angst in many of us. Although a number of members had specifically asked me to ban him, I had given Kuuuurija the benefit of the doubt because he does occasionally post i-MiEV-relevent items.

Kuuuurija, a year ago you were admonished for posting these types of off-topic posts, seemingly designed to tweak our environmentally-conscious members. Please contribute only i-MiEV-specific posts. Thank you.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Emission control sticker

Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:44 pm

The graph has text:
Based on carbon footprint of local electricity production AND CAR MANUFACTURING

So the footprint of car manufacturing is taken into account already!

Of course most people think, that having a small footprint is intrinsic property of electric cars, because of lot of such hype in media. But fortunately some still teach us, that everything depends on how big is the actual footprint, not on the hype. In Estonia, for example, we have an iMiev in the small Ruhnu island, that is mostly charged from the local diesel generators. A super sample about how emissions depend on the ACTUAL USAGE pattern. And the above mentioned graph shows us, what are the actual results.

Sorry Joe, but I told you already a year ago, that if you ban my freedom of speech, then better delete my account from here for good.

JoeS
Site Moderator
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Los Altos Hills, California

EVs and Emissions

Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:12 pm

Rather than use the nuclear option at this time, I've created this Topic and just moved the recent discussions in here.

For those of you wondering what is going on and have some time on your hands, for some past history you might search for Kuuuurija and the not-very-pleasant interactions we've had in the past.

I was brought up being told that patience and tolerance are virtues... :roll:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

kiev
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 7:15 am
Location: The Heart o' Dixie
Contact: Website

Re: EVs and Emissions

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:01 pm

i think you made the right move, Joe, as you have done many times moved a post from one topic to another or its own, if it is off-topic.

i don't have a problem with opinions different than mine, i like to hear other points of view--as a way to learn something new.

Estonia and the island mentioned seems to be a special case with respect to electricity generation and distribution network. It may be that a gas or diesel car would actually be a better choice due to constraints of the electrical grid and pollution considerations.

May we all live long and prosper.
kiev = kenny's innovative electric vehicle

jray3
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Re: EVs and Emissions

Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:28 pm

indeed, K-ja chose an outlier as an example and extrapolated it to a generality.
EVs are the only vehicle that create fewer emissions as they age (due to the greening of the grid), and just about any EV owner in coal country can gradually upgrade to solar if they wish, by plowing their fuel savings into grid-connected solar panels, or contributing to the efforts of others who do. Estonia has a generally dirty and expensive grid, but permits solar up to 11 kW and is slowly overcoming their structural impediments. Here's a good presentation.
http://www.slideshare.net/FinSolar/andr ... a-18022016
2012 i-SE "MR BEAN" 76,000 miles
i-ES traded at 21,648 miles
2000 Honda Odyssey
1987 F250 Diesel
1983 Grumman Kurbwatt,170 kW, 32 kWh
1983 Mazda RX-7 EV 43 kW 10 kWh
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" EV 240 kW 19 kWh
1965 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet

Don
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Re: EVs and Emissions

Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:54 pm

kiev wrote:Estonia and the island mentioned seems to be a special case with respect to electricity generation and distribution network. It may be that a gas or diesel car would actually be a better choice due to constraints of the electrical grid and pollution considerations.
If you live in Estonia, I think a bicycle would be the only reasonable option

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1994 Miata 60K miles - Soon to be sold
1979 Honda CBX six into six

PV1
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Re: EVs and Emissions

Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:51 am

Start a fund and Solarize Estonia?

I'll bite. When I first bought my i-MiEV, I researched my local grid fuel mix and the emissions generated by it. In the US, coal releases 2.2 lbs. of CO2 per kWh. Natural gas releases .95 lbs. of CO2 per kWh. With the blend of electricity 3 years ago, each kWh produced 1.95 lbs. of CO2 per kWh. So, to drive 40 miles, my i-MiEV (at 3.875 mi./kWh) would produce 20 lbs. of CO2. For my old Cavalier at 25 MPG, and each gallon of gasoline releasing 20 lbs. of CO2 from the tailpipe, driving the same 40 miles would release 32 lbs. of CO2. Even if the i-MiEV was 100% coal-powered, it would only release 22 lbs. for the drive.

However, that was three years ago. Today, (as evidenced by the result of our election) many coal plants have been shut down in favor of natural gas, and even some mini-hydro power has come online. So, if I re-calculate for 100% natural gas power, the i-MiEV would then produce only 9.8 lbs. of CO2. However, both of my i-MiEVs are solar-powered, so they produce net 0 CO2. I say net because kWh credits are generated during the day and the cars charge at night (which may actually be more efficient), but once I get my second-life Tesla batteries, they'll run on pure solar power.

Now, as for the production of the car. There is almost no difference for the car itself, the difference lies in the propulsion system (even though the i-MiEV is much lighter than other vehicles without its battery). While I don't know the specifics of manufacturing, it would seem that since an engine is made up of hundreds of different parts and a battery pack+motor is only a couple dozen, that the production impact would be lower for an electric drive system.

As for the unique situation in Estonia, running an ICE under a steady load is more efficient than the variable load of a car. That, combined with the regenerative braking of the EV, would make it seem to be slightly more efficient to use a generator and charge an EV vs. an ICE vehicle.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.

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