Kuuuurija
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Re: Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars

Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:44 am

jsantala wrote:https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2237rank.html

Estonia does seem to be really dirty in it's electricity production. We here in Finland could also do better at around 50% fossils. Denmark is around 60% wheras US and UK are at 76%. I wish we could all be more like Sweden, Norway and Iceland, with around 5-7% only.


Estonian electricity production not only seems dirty, but it is really dirty. But...
This table is about production, not about consumption. Therefore our neighbour Latvia has a very nice result, but if to take into account, that Latvia uses quite a lot of electric power that is produced in Estonia, then their picture is not so beautiful anymore. Finland uses Estonian electricity quite often too.

My point is, that you should look wider picture. If some nuclear plant in Finland will get into accident and will pollute whole region, including Estonia, then we see, how clean Finnish electric vehicles really are. I do not expect, that you consider that electric cars in Fukushima are cleaner than in Narva.

jsantala
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Re: Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:23 pm

That is true, you should also look at the imported electrity. However, when it comes to nuclear power, I'm quite a bit more worried about the Chernobyl-type reactors in Sosnovy Bor than the ones in Finland. The nuclear waste is a huge problem for both, of course.

Still, the thing about electricity is that it can be produced in so many ways. Oil can only be burned and it can only be so efficient. Even if it is produced in a dirty way now, I don't think it's dirtier than burning oil in cars. At the very least the pollution can happen away from people and city centers, and it can be done in most efficient way, instead of the inefficient use in a vehicle.

You also have to keep in mind that refining oil uses electricity. A lot of it. Actually so much that you could power an electric motorcycle with the electricity spent to produce the amount of gasoline a motorcycle would use. And oil refineries use the dirtiest electricity.
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Kuuuurija
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Re: Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars

Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:40 pm

I am quite sure, that you were more worried about Sosnovy Bor than Fukushima Daiichi before 11 March 2011.

How exactly do you evaluate cleanness of electric power consumed by EV? Does the Fukushima disaster affect only EV-s that are driving in Japan, or all electric cars that consume power from nuclear power plants? I do not know if Japan produces fuel for their nuclear plants by themselves or they by it from US (for instance). I know that enrichment of the nuclear fuel is also energy demanding process and I doubt that this energy comes directly from the Sun

jsantala
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Re: Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:18 am

I'm not for nuclear power. I'm for diversifying electricity production, mainly by wind and solar, and also for distributed electricity production by local solar where possible, also preferring geothermal energy for at least heating.

Building nuclear power plants on the coast of an area which has a high risk of earthquakes, including underwater, does not seem like a good idea to me. Having them on stable ground, like Finland, is much smarter, but still the problem of the waste remains. And of course anything can happen. It now looks like solar flares capable of disabling all electronics are much more common than previously believed. Nuclear plants could be affected by them too, not mention hostile attacks disabling their safety measures.
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PV1
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Re: Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:47 am

jsantala wrote: I'm not for nuclear power. I'm for diversifying electricity production, mainly by wind and solar, and also for distributed electricity production by local solar where possible, also preferring geothermal energy for at least heating.

I agree. We already have a huge source of nuclear power that has been powering life on this planet for billions of years, plus there isn't any waste disposal for us to deal with. That would be the sun. We harness this nuclear power directly as heat or as electricity through solar panels. This is my fuel of choice for anything that can use it.

Sure, you could say that fossils fuels are stored solar power, but there is a reason why that much biomass was stored in the ground in the first place. Plant life died off as atmospheric CO2 dropped, finding stability between 100-300 ppm. Extracting and consuming this stored carbon is knocking the balance off and causing global instability.

These last few posts ought to be put in a dedicated thread as this no longer relates to a tax on Teslas.
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JoeS
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Re: Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars

Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:40 am

PV1 wrote:These last few posts ought to be put in a dedicated thread as this no longer relates to a tax on Teslas.
I started to create a new thread when I realized this entire discussion is about power generation and the environment (tax on Teslas being incidental), so I simply changed the original title and moved this thread into Off Topic. Flamesuits on. ;)
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JoeS
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Re: Power Generation and Environment

Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:02 pm

As a proponent of zero-emissions power generation (and having recently upped my home's PV solar up to 10kW), I've recently had a complete change in my own perspective regarding the capabilities of modern nuclear power. Suggest reading Till and Chang's exhaustive book Plentiful Energy about the Integral Fast Reactor before passing judgement on nuclear power.
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Don
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Re: Power Generation and Environment

Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:07 pm

How many lives have been lost in the USA in association with nuclear power generation over the past 50 years?? Very, very few. Compare that to the number of coal miners and oil rig workers who have died while harvesting those forms of energy

Nuclear power may have a few issues of it's own, but once a plant is up and running, it's pretty darned clean energy when compared to coal or oil

Fukushima was a manmade disaster, but not so much because it was a nuclear plant - Evidently an idiot designed the plant. You know that A.) You've got to have back-up power to control the reactor in the event of an emergency and B.) You're building the plant in a proven tsunami area, so C.) You put the back-up generators down in the same tsunami area as the plant instead of safely up the mountain a few miles away where the water would never reach them. With geniuses like those designing things, no form of power production is safe

Don
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Phximiev
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Re: Power Generation and Environment

Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:04 pm

I agree with nuclear energy proponents. We have the Palo Verde plant here just west of Phoenix (out in the middle of nowhere), its been operating more or less flawlessly since its opened.

I also like the above article on the reactor and agree more money should be spent on the project.

Like solar panels also. :D
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Kuuuurija
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Re: Power Generation and Environment

Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:15 pm

Don wrote:How many lives have been lost in the USA in association with nuclear power generation over the past 50 years?? Very, very few. Compare that to the number of coal miners and oil rig workers who have died while harvesting those forms of energy

Many, many, many people have been killed by electricity! I am sure, that the number is bigger than of casualties from coal mining and oil pumping.

Don wrote:Fukushima was a manmade disaster, but not so much because it was a nuclear plant - Evidently an idiot designed the plant. You know that A.) You've got to have back-up power to control the reactor in the event of an emergency and B.) You're building the plant in a proven tsunami area, so C.) You put the back-up generators down in the same tsunami area as the plant instead of safely up the mountain a few miles away where the water would never reach them. With geniuses like those designing things, no form of power production is safe

If the backup power generation is away from the nuclear plant, then different kind of threats step in. I remind you that Daiichi plant was connected to the grid, but due to earthquake and tsunami, the grid was not operable any more. There is no guarantee, that backup power lines remain intact in case of serious earthquake and tsunami. It is easy to teach afterwards. Nobody foresees all threats.

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