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Re: Outlander PHEV test drive report

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:34 am
by phb10186
JoeS wrote:
jray3 wrote:...Mitsu has been way too conservative with the 1500 lb tow rating compared to 3500 lb for the V6...
Jay, thanks for the writeup, but sorry to hear about it's diminished towing capacity. The only reason I've kept my Isuzu Trooper is that the little four-banger with its compound-low 4WD gearing has effortlessly (but sometimes slowly) towed my trimaran over 30,000 miles up and down the West Coast and Lake Tahoe. Since the Outlander's frame should be able to take the load, I'm wondering if it has compound-low gearing or enough electric-motor assist to be able to, for example, crawl up a steep launching ramp pulling that tri? Since it's a CVT, I suspect not...

http://www.katiekat.net/Vehicles/PhotoLinkIzzyTelstar.html



I would say so - where the Outlander ICE (if it is available with a manual transmission/ planetary auto) could be classed as a a 4x4/ proper SUV of sorts, anything with a CVT gearbox will be in crossover territory, and CVTs are inherently sub-optimal compared to other options at delivering torque. The towing capacity has to be limited to the weakest drive combination (CVT and motor only upon a depleted battery) - so the PHEV is a good people carrier (light tower) for majority suburban/ urban work, but if you are regularly doing long distances, the EV range is small, and once that is depleted, the motor delivers only average relative economy really (like any other 2.0 gasoline crossover).

That said, if you drive 40 or so miles a day, you could mostly drive pure EV, and it would be a smart buy.

I recently had to replace the CVT gearbox in our Gen 2 Insight (the Honda quote was about $15K, so I went with a used unit for a few % of that price), and that never towed anything and only had 45K miles on it - so for me, the main issue with the PHEV is not in the EV power-train, but rather my less than favorable opinion of CVTs in general, but certainly a CVT installed in a 4 wheel drive vehicle. Though I was unlucky, and the car was serviced by the book - the failure is extremely rare, but that will influence my opinions about out of warranty vehicles with CVTs now. CVTs are also very susceptible to oil degradation, so it's extremely important to keep on top of the oil replacement intervals, using only the approved manufacturers fluids - maybe even more often than advised by the manufacturer. That said there are Insights about with 300k plus miles, that have done huge amounts of highway work.

Also, the quality and feel of the drive in that 'disconnected' manner as described above is certainly true, and having had the Imiev for 2 years now, a Hybrid Insight and a manual ICE Accord, the best drive is certainly provided by the EV, the most driver satisfaction (if you enjoy driving) is provided by standard ICE, preferably manual, and hybrids (including plug-ins) with CVTs - I feel - are a questionable compromise - which is interesting, as my initial thoughts were that the best model would be an EV and a Hybrid, but actually I now lean towards a small EV and a manual ICE vehicle (i.e those with the most direct drive between the motor and the wheels).

Glad the PHEV has finally come to North America - it is clearly a very good option for those who's needs fit well with the package.

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:51 pm
by Phximiev
Took a test drive in the Outlander PHEV today and was suitably impressed. It certainly has its place. The sales person however did insist that the all electric range was 33 miles per this site: http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/new-ca ... /phev-faq/

The feds however show 22 miles of EPA range: https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39830

What did impress me, similar to the iMiev, was the outstanding visibility. Additionally, other safety features, including the side and rear warning/cameras was impressive.

If we didn't already have the Volt, we would consider it.

Per the sales person, Mark Mitsubishi sold 4 from pre-orders leaving 2 in stock.

Re: Failed traction battery. How many weeks does Mitsubishi make you wait?

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:45 pm
by obrother
I will wait until they make their final decision to post about my car... but in the meantime.... Mitsubishi is releasing the Outlander PHEV in north america... Will how mitsubishi handles warrranty claims affect the release of their PHEV? Here's food for thought on the outlander....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z54jWVE6JSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Igdj20nXM

Re: Failed traction battery. How many weeks does Mitsubishi make you wait?

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:16 pm
by phb10186
^ Re the PHEV fail:

If you live in a country that actually has a progressive taxation system to promote green vehicles, I would say his argument might be quite different. That PHEVs and BEVs get decent government grants, annual personal tax and annual business tax relief makes the PHEV pay for itself far far quicker than the Austrailian calculations would work in places like the UK. Add in the fact that fuel savings are greater where fuel is taxed more - more savings again, and lastly - the ever unpopular London congestion charge at £14 per day to drive into London is free for all plug in vehicles, and that means that in London as an example, you would cover the price difference in a very short period of time - and that explains why the PHEV sells so well in the UK - and it does... really really well. In fact, if you were the perfect utiliser of a PHEV, my guess is it could pay for itself completely in 5 years or so.

Though I can't but notice that 17/18 PHEV registrations are somewhat down, and Tesla's have become more popular I suspect - though again, that may be more of an observation.

That is also why the PHEV has been available in such markets since late 2013, and the UK has the third largest market for the PHEV, and I would hazard a guess that 80% of those sold would be in London and the surrounding suburban sprawl.

Indeed Mitsu are about to launch/ have just launched a more compact PHEV crossover called the Eclipse Cross (unlike the sports coupe that once bore the name). This is based on the GS platform, which includes similarities to other cars also built on it - namely the Outlander itself, Lancer, Jeep Compass, Jeep Patriot etc...

http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/new-ca ... pse-cross/

Re: Failed traction battery. How many weeks does Mitsubishi make you wait?

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:59 pm
by obrother
All those tax breaks don't come free... congestion tax? Why so many people? Maybe if the UK leaves the Euro and the rest of the countries in Europe follow suit there wouldn't be a need forcing people to go electric through taxation. The current technology should not be forced on anyone. The battery technology is not there yet. Maybe with solid state? That's still a long way out... The tax incentives won't be around forever...in the end you will be paying more for a car. What's the long term plan? You won't own a car... only for the rich? In Canada we have tax incentives for purchasing an electric vehicle. But even with the rebate of $9555 in the province of Ontario on the outlander phev... $50651 for the cheapest phev all in which comes out to $41096 ...and $34831 all in price in canadian dollars for the cheapest awd gas version it does not make economic sense. It will cost $6265 more for the phev. Then there is the unknown of difference in insurance cost... and maintenance costs out of warranty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_e ... reductions

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:16 pm
by JoeS
I took the liberty of moving those posts to this thread, but can start a new topic... I preferred to leave the previous topic focused on the battery replacement issue.

Love the Aussies! He provides entertainment and doesn't mince words.

Bear in mind that Australian imported car prices are steep to begin with, and the Australian dollar is presently at around 80% of the US dollar.

I was curious what he had to say about EVs, but only found three dated links -

1) Totally disparaged the Australian CarSales car of the year awards -

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/bad-cars-of-the-year

2) Negative recommendation regarding the BMW i3

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/new-cars/qa/should-i-buy-a-bmw-i3

3) When I tried to find out what he thought of Electric Vehicles in general, this is about all I found:

https://autoexpert.com.au/owning-a-car/fuel/alternative-fuels

Quite a forceful individual - I'll let others comment...

Edit: I just watched his second video and his preoccupation with energy density is, uh, unnecessary. I found his negativity and berating attitude not to my liking, but I guess that's what attracts attention nowadays (politicians included). OTOH, he uses numbers to support his arguments, which I like (but can dispute).

Re: Failed traction battery. How many weeks does Mitsubishi make you wait?

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:18 pm
by wmcbrine
obrother wrote:All those tax breaks don't come free... congestion tax? Why so many people? Maybe if the UK leaves the Euro and the rest of the countries in Europe follow suit there wouldn't be a need forcing people to go electric through taxation.

I'm going to be generous and assume that you just skipped a few steps in writing down your argument, because what you wrote makes no sense whatsoever.

The tax incentives won't be around forever...in the end you will be paying more for a car.

Actually, no. Battery prices are steadily declining, and apart from the battery, BEVs are already simpler and thus cheaper to build than ICE cars. BEVs are projected to be cheaper than equivalent ICE models in absolute terms (without subsidies) within a few years. PHEVs are another story of course, more complex than either BEV or ICE, but they're still benefitting from cheaper batteries.

Re: Failed traction battery. How many weeks does Mitsubishi make you wait?

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:01 am
by phb10186
obrother wrote:All those tax breaks don't come free... congestion tax? Why so many people? Maybe if the UK leaves the Euro and the rest of the countries in Europe follow suit there wouldn't be a need forcing people to go electric through taxation. The current technology should not be forced on anyone. The battery technology is not there yet. Maybe with solid state? That's still a long way out... The tax incentives won't be around forever...in the end you will be paying more for a car. What's the long term plan? You won't own a car... only for the rich? In Canada we have tax incentives for purchasing an electric vehicle. But even with the rebate of $9555 in the province of Ontario on the outlander phev... $50651 for the cheapest phev all in which comes out to $41096 ...and $34831 all in price in canadian dollars for the cheapest awd gas version it does not make economic sense. It will cost $6265 more for the phev. Then there is the unknown of difference in insurance cost... and maintenance costs out of warranty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_e ... reductions


I do get your points, and many are valid.

1. Yes those tax breaks don't come free, but they are effectively paid for by drivers of high emission vehicles - who pay a little more tax to drive their gas guzzlers, so people who drive low/ zero emission vehicles pay less or almost nothing - so overall, Joe public tax payer pays nothing unless they elect to drive said guzzler - one could argue that is fair.

2. The UK will be leaving the EU (as I am told daily by the news), but this wont make any difference to green policies - they are already in an advanced state of development, and momentum has already been gained by popular approval. I don't necessarily agree with emissions based taxation, but I do agree that the air quality in London could be much better, and it is overwhelmingly attributed to the burning of fuel, especially diesel. So in urban areas, insofar as basic public health, I think that these policies are appropriate. In more rural areas, I am less convinced. As far as the congestion charge goes - London is built on 300 year old roads, narrow in many places, and cant accommodate the vehicles (why everyone has used the Tube since about 1870) - that, compared with broad EU diesel promotion over the last 20 years has created extremely poor air quality, so I favour clean air, and don't even have to pay a cent as my EV is exempt - double fair?

3. You do pay more for the car, you probably will for a long time yet, battery technology isn't there yet, but then again - ICE technology isn't there yet either... still bumbling around the 38% efficiency mark at best, not to mention that a gallon is burned for every pumped gallon in drilling, distillation, storage and transport costs - so the true figure is more like a 20-25% return.

4. I tend to think the long term plan will be that not only do you not own the car, but you don't drive it either. Though I would miss driving a lot, i would enjoy sleeping on the commute to work.

5. I agree that out of warranty maintenance is an issue, and I have mentioned in other replies that there needs to be a better solution for this for EVs - though ICE cars have likewise become increasingly difficult and costly to maintain as they age. No battery failures to worry about - granted.

Re: Outlander PHEV thread

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:20 pm
by Phximiev
Just saw this news: https://insideevs.com/mitsubishi-dealer ... phev-suvs/

Something to watch.

How to sabotage your own product launch...

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:17 pm
by jray3
With barely one month of US Sales to report for the Outlander PHEV and dealers clamoring for more inventory, this seems like a perfect time for Mitsubishi to announce a new and improved version for Europe, with more battery, a torquier, more efficient engine, and an upgraded interior. Oh, and don't bother to mention whether the US will get the updated version, or continue to receive the version that debuted four years ago in Europe. At least this should bode well for purchase incentives in the US... :roll:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115432_2019-mitsubishi-outlander-phev-updates-for-europe-to-debut-in-geneva